LIST OF FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT JARDINE'S PARROTS
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This is a compilation of Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) on this mailing list. Please read this information before you post a question to see if it is already answered here. Many new subsribers often have the same questions to ask - therefore, this is an attempt to collect basic information so discussions do not have to be repeated on the list. However, if you have a question you do not see listed here OR it is not answered sufficiently for you here, please feel free to post your question. We are a friendly bunch of people & will be happy to help you out.

This is also intended to address questions specific to Jardine's parrots rather than bird care in general. However, you will find a bit of general information here for completeness.

(Note: In the following text, Jardine is abbreviated as "J")

This FAQ was compiled for the purpose of providing useful information to curious Jardine parrot owners. However, the content of this FAQ only represents the experiences/opinions of various members of the Jardine email list. Therefore, it should be taken with a grain of salt. We are not licensed veterinarians and so the information provided in this FAQ should not be used to diagnose any avian illnesses. In case of illness, take your bird to a vet. Furthermore, the compilers and authors of the information in this FAQ cannot be held responsible in the unfortunate circumstance that you choose to follow the advice and something bad happens. Please use common sense.

BUYING A BABY JARDINE
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Q1 - I would like to buy a baby J. How can I find out about breeders or stores in my area?

A - From editor:

There are a number of ways of locating a Jardine breeder. Many stores and breeders advertise in the back of Bird Talk. You could also consult your local avian vet. Finally, you could post a message to the Jardine email list stating your location and requesting assistance in finding a breeder near you.

A non-inclusive list of breeders is listed below. Keep in mind that while everyone listed below comes recommended by at least one member of this list, there may be breeders below who other people have not had good experiences with. When choosing a breeder, do your homework & make sure YOU feel comfortable with the breeder (i.e. handfeeding, weaning, fledging, socialization, shipping, support when you get home, costs, health guarantees, sanitation / disease prevention, etc)

CA: Aves international
Gail Worth
(310) 541-1180

J&R Exotics
Jim
San Fransisco

FL: Jean "The African Queen" Pattison
Private Email: afqueen@gate.net

MD: Nancy Jaax

NC: John Boos
African Pines Aviary
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-3161

NM: Kelly Tucker
email: vktucker@highfiber.com
fax: (505) 384-5441
voice: (505) 384-5490
MAP Certified: March, 1994

OK: Gary Blankenbiller
MAP Certified and CAS
405-691-4114
FAX 405-691-3555
email gary@wingscc.com

TN: Cathy
MAP Certified

TX: Scott Lewis
Old World Aviaries
MAP Certified
Email: slewis@OldWorldAviaries.com
Web Site: http://www.OldWorldAviaries.com/

VA: Genny Jacobs
Joyful Noise Aviary
MAP Certified
Virginia Beach, Va.
804-426-2570

WI: Shimniok, Oakridge Feather Farm
AFA M.A.P. Certified Aviary
Distributor of Air Purification Systems
P.O. Box 113, Cross Plains, Wisc. 53528-9545
TELEFAX: 608-798-4877
Private Email: oakridge@midplains.net

Q2 - Is it OK to have my baby J shipped?

A - From Rita and Jean:

Shipping by airline is not the ideal way to deliver a bird, but as breeders saturate their area with offspring from their birds, eventually the willingness to ship or drive long distances becomes essential to remain in business. We depend on these airlines to ship our babies and also to bring new genetic stock to our aviaries. Although more expensive than cargo shipments, a counter to counter service is preferable to most breeders rather than taking an entire day or more of their time to hand-deliver a bird, while other bird(s) sit at home not receiving their daily care. Also, for small breeders who work full time in addition to raising birds - the weekends are the only two days to clean aviaries, make a batch of food, catch up on breeding records, make vet appointments, etc. With hand-feeding schedules it is almost impossible to be away from home for more than five hours.

There are 3 kinds of flights:

Connecting flights (changing planes)
Direct flights (stops but does not change planes)
NON-STOP flights (not the same as direct)

If you must connect, ask if they have warm rooms to house the birds, or if the bird must sit for a length of time do they have warm rooms.

Ship as early in the day as possible, and at the very least make sure there is another flight to the same destination afterwards, per chance the connecting flight is missed.

Ask the right questions, double check connecting times to make sure the connections won't be missed. ALWAYS obtain flight numbers, departure and arrival times at each stop (direct flights are not always available), flight numbers, and a freight bill number.

Call the airlines with the air bill number when the bird should be transferred to the connecting flight. They know shortly after if the bird is on the plane. You want to know the bird connected.

Write on the carrier "If bird is not put on scheduled flight, MUST contact shipper".

If the weather is cold - block off air hole vents in the carrier with folded newspaper or cardboard. Be sure there is plenty of fruit for the bird to eat for hydration, and plenty of favorite dry foods (2 days worth at least). For older birds placing a perch low to the floor is less stressful on the bird.

For unweaned babies, if the weather is cool, provided shredded paper toweling or similar substrate for chick(s) to snuggle down into for comfort. A favorite, travel safe toy is good to include. Tape a small baggie of formula, spoon or syringe, and complete feeding instructions along with your phone number in case the baby does not arrive at its destination on time and requires a hand-feeding. Taped or written on the carrier with a bold marker should be a noticeable sign that reads: Attention - this bird(s) must be hand-fed by _____ (time).

A - From Rita:

I have shipped and have received several birds via Delta DASH Counter to Counter service - and these birds have never entered a cold, empty warehouse. The shipper takes them inside the terminal ticket counter (not the cargo building) - hands them to a Delta representative where they are taken on board by a flight attendant and placed in a presurrized hold. When the plane lands the carrier is hand carried off of the plane and is taken to the Delta office inside the terminal - so the receiver must go to the Delta ticket counter to pick the bird up also.

A - From Jean:

Shipped a baby (8 weeks old) from Tampa to Tex. non stop. Called from Texas airport and said baby wasn't on plane. Found baby on his way to L.A. non stop (he was inadvertantly put on the wrong plane). Opted not to have anyone feed him in L.A.. Just put him on the next plane back to TX. He arrived 20 hrs after leaving my house. When they called from airport they said he was hungry but you would have thought the bird had been just taken out of his nursery at home. Not a ruffled feather.

Q3 - What about bringing my baby J on the airplane in a carrier?

A - From Rita:

I highly recommend that you call airlines for maximum size of carriers to fit under the seats. The size does vary among the airlines - but the 8" high seems to be a universal maximum.

We made the 14" OGPP for med. sized parrots to work as both a travel cage and under the seat carrier. The bird has a perch available as well as lock down crocks in either position used (carrier position or travel cage).

The Parrot Palace allows full view of bird by airport security - a bird should never be sent through an x-ray machine. The acrylic panel allows them to make sure nothing suspicious is hiding in the carrier with your bird.

As far as carriers only go - the basic small tan carriers (with metal bars or solid tan top) do fit under airline seats. Kennel Cab brand models are usually too high to fit under the seat - again - the airline requirements vary.

Q4 - How much money should I expect to pay for a J?

A - From Rita:

Prices for Js vary depending on subspecies, area of the country, and what is included in the price (some breeders include veterinary exams, vaccinations, books, etc.).

I will admit that if a person asks me about a bird and the first question out of their mouth is "HOW MUCH?" - that immediately tells me this person may not be a likely candidate for one of our babies.

Since you are obviously going to start J shopping there are many questions you should be asking - with price being the last. Don't forget - parrots are long lived. A $1000 parrot that should easily live 50 years equals $20 a year for that bird's companionship. 50 yrs. is just an example - life spans should be longer with proper nutrition and care.

Q5 - What things should I look for when shopping for a J?

A - From Rita:

Questions to ask people selling baby J's:

How much do you handle your babies?

If the answer is "Oh, I don't want to spoil them," - walk on by. Babies need to be cuddled and stroked every day. When they are really young this is as simple as taking a few minutes after the hand-feeding for some personal cuddling.

Are your birds socialized?

Ideally, especially for J babies, they are introduced to a variety of people during development, which will help prevent that "one person bond" so many J's are known for. Some breeders live in the boonies - so perhaps visitors are not the norm. Still, a breeder should include baby J's in household activities - such as folding laundry in the bedroom, hanging out during television, etc. If babies only see one area of the house until the time they leave, they will not make a transition into a new environment as easily.

At what age do you wean your babies?

The answer should never be a concrete age - such as 12 weeks. All babies are individuals and should be weaned according to their own schedule. A force-weaned baby is a traumatized baby - and this may leads to feather plucking at 2-3 yrs. of age. We have had babies wean as late as 24 weeks. They don't leave our home until they are eating well on their own, or the new owner is confident and willing to spoonfeed a baby cereal mash (recipe provided) that we give our babies in the morning and bedtime - when they are almost weaned and eating plenty on their own.

What kind of diet do you wean your babies to?

The answer should not be "seeds"! It should be - a well-researched pelleted diet as a base, with a variety of vegetables, pasta, breads, homemade mashes or commercially premixed foods like Crazy Corn, Max Snax. Fruit is good also - but does not have the vitamin content of vegetables and should not be over emphasized.

May I take my baby home unweaned?

The answer should be NO. Unless you are a very experienced hand-feeder OR the breeder is willing to provide hours of extensive lessons. A novice hand-feeder should obtain a food thermometer and gram scale before undertaking such a large responsibility - as the baby is the one who ultimately suffers.

Do you provide a health guarantee?

The answer should and must be - YES. And get it in writing so you have a paper back up. Babies should be guaranteed against disease and congenital defects. Physical deformities must be listed - not all breeders divulge this if you are buying sight unseen - so it is not a bad idea to ask this. Handicap birds can make wonderful pets and should not be bypassed because of it - however, it is nice to have a baby arrive and not be shocked that it is missing all of its toes or part of a wing, etc.

Most guarantees have a time limit as birds can pick up bacteria in a less than clean environment. As hard as breeders may try to screen future homes - people can be deceiving also. A time limit is normal to protect the breeder from unscrupulous buyers.

Ask what is required for a refund if the bird dies of disease. For example: many parrots look alike - so someone could go to a breeder saying "Your bird died of P______" - a reputable aviary would be shocked to hear this - and would certainly want proof. Of course a necropsy has to be done when a bird dies to determine the cause. I have heard of breeders requesting the birds leg with the leg band in place. This may seem cruel but there are scams out there who try to take breeders for a loop - saying their bird died when it really has not.

Q6 - Should I buy a baby that was tube or gavage fed?

A - From Rita:

Babies should be either spoon fed or fed with a syringe, with the formula being tasted by the chicks. Babies should not be fed "by gavage". When tubes are placed directly into a crop and the crop is pumped full of formula, chicks receive no actual feeding satisfaction and are very difficult to wean as they have no idea what food tastes like.

A - From Jean:

Technically there is no difference in tube, or gavage (rhymes with garage) feeding. Most breeders "refer" to tube feeding as using a soft very pliable rubber tube, they refer to gavage as feeding with a curved metel tube, that has a ball on the end. When a bird begins the feeding response the whole esophagus opens to allow food while the trachea closes. Once the feeding response starts the tube or gavage glides down the esophagus and the feeder stops once it reaches the crop. A premeasured amount of food is then expelled into the crop.

I personally do not believe tube feeding or gavage feeding will make a bird any less tame, or sweet, or harder to wean than a bird that is syringe or spoon fed, if done properly. There is a right and a wrong way to do all of the above. A hand feeder that uses a tube or gavage and does it properly will have babies that no one would be able to tell were fed in that manner.

Q7 - What age do baby J's wean?

A - From editor:

The answer is not absolute. Some birds take more time than others. You should expect a J to be fully weaned somewhere between 12 and 24 weeks.

Q8 - Should I buy an unweaned baby?

A - From editor:

This subject is very controversial and feelings tend to be very strong one way or the other. Below is a sample of some of the issues:

A - From Scott L:

I do think that a fairly inexperienced person is capable of handling the job successfully. However, I do not think that such a person is as capable as an experienced handfeeder to recognize problems should they occur and take proper action.

Would you weigh your baby daily with a gram scale? If not and the baby got sick, you would very probably have not noticed until the baby was really sick and perhaps too sick to save.

Do you know how to recognize if a baby aspirates during feeding? If not and the baby seriously aspirates, the baby would probably die because antibiotics were not started in a timely fashion to avoid aspiration pneumonia.

I am not a rocket scientist and I have successfully handfed many babies. However, I do believe that you should have some experience before you take on a 5-week-old chick. Not long ago, to my horror, I watched a baby I was feeding aspirate. I knew what it looked like. I started Baytri, and the baby was fine. Would you be able to do the same?

We don't sell unweaned babies to anyone without significant handfeeding experience. For all the reasons listed above.

A - From Jean:

I for one would be out of business if I couldn't sell unweaned babies. I will fight to my death for the right to do so. I sell a lot wholesale and other breeders.

I sell unweaned babies (also known as chicks) to many first time feeders. BUT......only after I have instructed them and feel they can do a good job (and they must feel confident also). I am available 24 hours a day for questions and problems, no matter how silly they may seem to the owner.

I agree about contacting the breeder first. I KNOW MY BIRDS better than anyone, I personally resent anyone going elsewhere FIRST. I have often advised people to a vet, or another breeder for advice or reassurance, but me first if it's my baby!

A - From Genny:

I have sold two young unweaned (as opposed to 12 week old unweaned) babies, both timnehs. Both individuals had extensive experience hand feeding cockatiels. Both birds thrived physically, but while one was wonderfully socialized and raised with loving "nurturing dominance", the other soon became the terror of the household and "had to be gotten rid of" because of her "bad" behavior. In our decisions, we must remember that it is always the bird who pays the biggest price.

Q9 - If I decide to buy an unweaned baby, how do I finish hand feeding / weaning him?

A - From Jean:

Snickers (8 weeks old) is near weaning. If you have not clipped him yet, don't until he can fly well (3 days to a week or more). Be sure to cover mirrors and windows when he starts flying. It really helps the weaning process if they can fly. I usually cut out the middle feedings first. After awhile try lessening the morning feed. If he is eating soft food well it should be fairly smooth.

I like the night feed to be the last feeding stopped but sometimes they do eat through the day so they don't want food in the evening then are hungry in the AM. Sometimes I don't cut the afternoon feed out, I just feed less. Some food seems to stimulate the appetite.

A - From Cindy:

I was feeding 18 cc's for day feedings as per directions from the breeder, but my gut told me he just wasn't getting quite enough. (I think raising four human babies through infancy helped with the gut thing, I was never much for strict schedules). So I increased his feedings by 3 cc's and wah la, it quieted him right down! Food for birds when they are very young is one of the most important things for making them feel secure.

A - From Gina:

I took the regular pellets and soaked them in hot water until they were completely soft - if they cool off too much, warm them up a bit. Kiwi loved them that way, it was the only way I could get him started on regular pellets. He still enjoys them mushy once in a while.

A - From Scott P:

Feed "glop" between 100-110 degrees faranheit is good. Do NOT go any hotter than that, as it can cause crop burn, leading to infections, and, even worse, trauma. You can go to a restaurant supply (or home) store and pick up a chef's pocket thermometer for about $5.00 if you do not have one.

Q10 - Does my new baby J need to go to the vet?

A - From editor:

Yes! It should be taken immediately to the vet for a new bird checkup. The following tests are recommended for a new bird: CBC (complete blood count), Psittacosis test, PBFD test, ????

If you have other birds in the house, the new bird should be isolated as much as possible from the other birds in the event that it does have some illness. You do not want to bring a disease into your house & infect your other buddies. Recommended quarantine times are a minimum of 30 days, 60 days is better. This means that you put the birds in separate rooms, keep toys & dishes separated, always wash hands with disinfectant after handling birds before handling birds from other "side", have a shirt handy that you can put on when going into the new bird room that stays only in the new bird room. This is a recommended procedure. The more you can isolate the birds & any virus/bateria, the less likely your chance of spreading a disease through the rest of your flock will be. If you can only do some of the recommendations, you can still decrease your risk.

Q11 - At what age will I be able to determine a J's personality?

A - From Rita:

Personalities seem to emerge around 7 weeks for the Greaters. By nine weeks you can determine who is going to be the cuddler and who is the road runner/great explorer.

Q12 - What is the color of the eyering on an immature J?

A - From Jean:

When the J's were being imported and surgically sexed at the import stations the immature birds sold cheaper than birds "ready to breed". With surgical sexing they would visibly see the development of the birds internal organs, thus knowing if it was a mature or immature bird sexually. All the juveniles had the dark eye rings. As the J's started having babies I noticed this wasn't the case with the domestics (at first), all my juveniles had white eye rings. The last few years however a lot of my babies have had blackish eye rings, they do lighten up with age.

A - From Rita:

I have never seen a dark eye ring on any immature J's - either my own, Pam's, or those at bird fairs.

Q13 - What about hybridization?

A - From editor:

The subject of hybridization of birds, that is, pairing together a male bird from one subspecies with a female bird of another subspecies to create a baby bird which is a hybrid of the 2 subspecies is very controversial. Many people feel very strongly about whether or not such pairs should be allowed to mate & produce young and therefore this topic will not be addressed here. It's a highly ethical, and often political, issue that causes many harsh feelings.

A - From Rita:

Crossing a Greater and Lesser J is not considered hybridization of a species - as both are Jardine's listed as poicephalus guilielmi.

Should you be concerned if the Jardine's you are buying is not a pure sub-species? Answer: If it is to be a pet only, then no - crossed birds make excellent pets. If you plan to breed the bird in the future, it is important never to pair a cross J with a pure J down the line. Cross-bred J's should be sold as pets, and not to the serious breeder interested in conservation/preservation of a sub-species.

A - From editor:

If you want to buy a J and find out the breeder breeds Scarlet and Greenwing macaws together, even if their J is pure, you will have to make your own personal decision if you wish to buy from them.

JARDINE SUB-SPECIES AND COLORATION
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Q1 - How can I tell what subspecies my J is?

A - From Jean & Rita:

The P.g. massaicus, Greater Jardines, weigh between 265 and 300 grams, with hens being on the low end of the scale. Some mature males have topped 310 grams. Babies have no red orange coloration on their head, and it may take up to five or six years to attain full color. Some individuals may only get a few red orange feathers, and a few will recieve none. If the coloration extends into the crown and beyond the eye, it is not a pure Greater Jardine's. The maxilla (upper mandible) on the Greater Jardine's is bone colored and tipped in black. A few are reported to have a dark stripe down the center. The lower mandible is black. The beak of a Greater Jardine's seems to fit its face, and has a tucked in appearance. Greater Jardine's also have a wider margin of green scalloping each black wing feather, when compared to other Jardine's sub-species. The Greater Jardine's has a tall, sleek appearance like that of a basketball player and perches in an upright position. Babies can appear underweight to those not familiar with their build. These birds originate from Eastern Africa in Kenya and Tanzania.

P.g. fantiensis, the Lesser Jardine's is the most commonly available Jardine's sub-species in the United States. Weights have been reported in a range starting at 180 grams with some nearing 230 grams. Again, hens tend to be smaller in size than males. The coloration on the head is generally a pumpkin or citrus orange, however, some Lesser's sport a dandelion yellow coloration. The Lessers have the most coloration on their head, it is not uncommon for feathering hatchlings to sport a few orange feathers. The amount of coloration varies, but most often extends beyond the forehead to the crown when mature. Orange or yellow feathers scattered in the body are not uncommon. The beak appears extremely large for such a small bird, often delivering a comical look. A side view of a Lesser exhibits an outward "jutting" profile of the beak. The beak is usually black or dark except for two small triangles of bone near the cere of the maxilla. Some small Jardine's have exhibited very dark wings, and sometimes bodies. Although some believe them to be P.g. guilielmi, many experts do not consider these small birds to be the nominate Black-wing. There is speculation that P.g. fantiensis may have a second race, but this is unconfirmed. The Lesser Jardine's have a stocky, chunky appearance and sit more parallel than upright to the perch. P.g. fanteinsis originates from West Africa.

The P.g. guilielmi, Black-wing Jardine's, average between 245 and 280 grams. Because of the size overlap with P.g. massaicus, care should be taken not to mismatch sub-species when pairing birds for breeding. This sub-species looks very much the same as the Lesser Jardine's, and therefore has resulted in mis-pairings of sub-species. However, the coloration on the head definitely appears red, not orange as seen in the Lessers. Wings almost appear black from a distance, and some individuals possess black feathering in other areas of their body also. The wing feathers reach their mature "black appearance" around the age of two years. The beak matches that of a Lesser Jardine's. Black-wings perch similar to the Lesser Jardine's and carry their body somewhat horizontally to the perch. P.g. guilielmi are very rare in the United States and should not be kept as pets. When obtaining Black-wings for breeding, it is important to correctly identify the parents to ensure a pure genetic background. One example, is that a Black-Wing Jardine's would never sport an orange forehead and crown. The coloration is always a shade of red.

All Jardines have white or light gray eye rings as adults. Greater's have been reported to have a yellow tinge to their eye rings. Some juveniles may also have white eye rings but generally eyerings are dark, lightening with age. Imported juveniles always have black eye rings.

The feet of all three sub-species varies from dark gray to flesh toned, and sometimes mottled. In no way does the coloration of the feet reflect upon sub-species, or even gender. Many males (not all) do tend to have a very square, flat head, whereas hens tend to have a more round head shape. Surgical or chromosome sexing must be used to confirm gender of young unproven birds.

There are pictures of Js at the African Parrot Society web page. The UK section (via APS web page) also has a description of them; I do not think it totally agrees with the above. We have learned more since it was written. http://www.wingscc.com/aps/

A - From Jean:

The fourth sub-species, P.g.permistus, is very controversial. I know someone in Africa now that says he "MAY" have them. He will know when they get older. They appear like the BW but have green borders on their wings. All juveniles have green borders, the Black-wing loses the green with age - the P.g permistus does not.

Forshaw's book states they come from the highlands of Kenya. I know a gentleman who lived in Africa for years and knew a woman raising many Jardine's. She claimed they had a totally different J that lives in the mountains. Taxonimists call these "clines" a breakoff of a subspecies. They live in the same region but are "different". It does get confusing. There are no photos and Forshaw didn't examine any skins. I think it was hearsay that he based his text on. I believe there is a fourth, and maybe then some.

The nominate species is the first to be discovered. When a bird is discovered, a new species is found: Poicephalus (genus) guluelmi (Jardine) gulielmi (Black Wing). A few years go by and another is found; now we have a sub-species. We also now have 2 birds of the same species. The second bird is now called Poicephalus gulielmi massaicus. Nominate subspecies always have the same 2 names after the Genus name. But this bird is no more than one of the sub-species. Of course then we base our differences in the others by comparing it to the nominate.

A - From Vicky:

Here is what the book "African Birds of Kenya and Tanzania" says re: Jardines:

Red-Fronted Parrot Poicephalus gulielmi massaicus (Red-headed Parrot)

Length 260-280 mm (10-11"). A robust, dark green highland parrot. Adult has red forehead, crown, and leg feathers. In flight, red leading wing edges and yellowish-green rump are noticeable. Bare orbital skin greyish yellow; eyes red-orange; maxilla ivoryhorn, the tip and entire mandible blackish; feet dark brown. Juvenile has red body and wing patches replaced by brown, the crown buff. Voice: Shrill, high-pitched screeching chatter in flight and when perched. Habits: Pairs or samll groups feed in treetops. May congregate in large flocks for roosting. Undertakes extensive daily flights to and from feeding areas. Status and distribution: Widespread and locally common in Podocarpus and Juniperus forests between 2000 and 3200 m, in the w. and cent. Kenyan highlands on Mt. Elgon and the Cheranganis, the Mau, Aberdares and Mt. Kenya, with disjunct populations around Maralal and in the Ngurumans. Also on Kilimanjaro, in Arusha NP and parts of Tanzania's Crater Highlands.

Q2 - When will my J grow those pretty orange feathers?

A - From Rita:

Jardines do acquire more orange as they get older. The Lesser Jardines (the smaller ones known as West African) can be feathered out with orange feathers as babies and this increases with age. The Greater Jardine's sub-species has no orange feathers on their head when they feather out as babies. They may get one feather during their first molt, or perhaps several. It may take as long as 5-6 years for them to reach their total adult coloration. However, the Greater Jardines will hardly ever obtain as much orange coloration as the Lessers. By the way, the Greater Jardine's orange is more akin to red-orange versus pumpkin or citrus orange found on the Lessers.

JARDINE PERSONALITIES
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Q1 - What type of personalities do J's have?

A - From GinnyR:

Each is unique. Some are bold and bossy, others are more cuddly. Generally Jardines like to be in the same room with you, but will entertain themselves quite nicely. They are not clinging birds like Cockatoos. Jardines tend to follow their special people from room to room so be sure doors are shut, and always keep safety in mind.

A - From Jean Pattison:

Js are the Amazons of the Africans, without the screaming and mating aggression. Plain and simple, they just love being alive. They live for life. They play constantly and hard, just for the sheer joy of doing it. They can entertain themselves for endless hours. They love being cuddled and scritched, hopping around, chasing things and swinging. When they know they have been bad they have this little John Wayne walk, kind of sideways, and look at you with a cocked head. One of their big drawbacks is that they play dead - takes years off of me. Most seem to enjoy being on their backs, on the bottom of cage, in food cup, and on their perch while holding onto the cage with one foot. (Ed.: for a picture, see http://www.wingscc.com/aps/pj-jp1.jpg)

They can be fairly good talkers - the voice quality can be almost as good as a Grey, but they usually don't use the good voice, but a more birdlike one. They love you, just for the pleasure of it. Jardine's are just happy-to-be-alive birds - no purpose, just here and enjoying it. They love just hanging out too. I love them for their love of life.

I recommend them for families and young adults.

A - From Sheila:

You will never regret your decision to choose a Jardine's-let me quote from My Parrot My Friend: "The Jardine's Parrot is, we believe, as close to the "perfect parrot" as it is possible to come. There appear to be two races, one somewhat larger than the other. The larger of the two is similar in size to a small Amazon. Its plumage is lovely, being predominantly black with huge scalloping of chartreuse green on each feather. After the bird acquires its adult plumage (at one year of age), it begins to develop the typical poppy-orange areas on the forehead, wing bends and thighs. The Jardine's has one of the loveliest natural calls in parrotdom--very soft and musical, much like the songs of our native songbirds. (The Jardine's can growl when upset, as does the African Grey, but rarely seems to do so-just another indication of its very steady, calm personality). It can learn to talk quite well, does not scream and remains sweet and gentle at sexual maturity. Its personality is invariably affectionate. Additionally, the Jardine's seems to be exceptionally intelligent. Only recently has this parrot become a little more available; those who are able to find hand-reared parrots of this species are fortunate. The owner of a Jardine's Parrot can look forward to many long years experiencing one of the nicest encounters of the feathered kind."

A - From Sheila (later):

I think that the description really fit my Zambi when she was a youngster. As she got older and decided she was her own "person" and the aggressive behavior started, I would have to say My Parrot My Friend gave a very one-sided view of the Jardine's Parrot! However, there is still no bird as cute and personable as a J can be! Remember the story of the little girl who when she was good was VERY VERY good and when she was bad she was VERY VERY bad? That is my Zambi!!!!!!!

A- From Ginny Caputo:

I can comment on my own two Lesser Jardines: Wingnut & SadieLady. I think that the write-up in My Parrot My Friend which refers to Jardines as such a perfect parrot has done a disservice to Jardines. There is no such thing as a perfect parrot nor a perfect human nor a perfect dog nor a perfect etc. etc. etc. Each species has characteristics which fit better with some people's lifestyles than others. My Jardines are both BEAUTIFUL parrots with feisty personalities & (j)attitudes.

My Wingnut was probably not well socialized prior to my bringing him home at a year old. But he has bundles of personality in his little feathered package. He tends to be a one person bird but can be handled by complete strangers as long as they are not my husband! <g> But that is partly Jim's fault for not being willing to risk getting bitten with equanimity. Wingnut cheerfully meets new people who he will even talk to & whistle to if gushed over sufficiently. He particularly loves women with reddish hair & has one "girl friend" who he has adored from first sight. He is affectionate sometimes but is unpredictable with me. Not much of a cuddler. He is sensitive & will become phobic of me if I am too stern with him by holding him in a towel & glaring at him if he bites. That is more than he can take. He has become more playful as time goes on. At first he did nothing. Now he climbs all over his ParrotTower, plays in a paper bag with his toys, loves to play rowdy (but is apt to bite then), will hang upside-down from my hand (after over a year of working up to that), says words absolutely clearly when he feels like it. SadieLady is sweet & affectionate. She will have a temper tantrum when she doesn't get her way but rarely bites hard. She adores having her head scratched. While she is much less likely to bite than the Nut, she hates being touched under her wings. I don't have her on a good playgym yet so she is not playing as much as I would like her to play. She has the table top version of the ParrotTower which isn't working out well for her. SadieLady will go to new people with enthusiasm but won't let them scratch her on the head. She likes meeting new people & remembers the ones she likes. SadieLady is not yet a talker but she is good at whistles, coughs, & laughs.

My Jardines are relatively quiet which is nice, especially since Buddy, my Mitred conure, is not quiet! <g> I adore both of them & have no regrets. They are Jardines, not Greys or cockatoos or macaws. Not a perfect pet for everyone although they are perfect Jardines. For me they are sufficiently perfect. If you don't like pets with an attitude, you might not like Jardines. I happen to like an attitude.

A - From Rita Shimniok:

Within a species individual personalities vary greatly. So much depends on the environmental factors of how a baby parrot is raised and the environment of what is hoped to be their permanent home. Parrots are hardly domesticated like cats and dogs - they are their own "person". :- )

Jardine's, like Amazons, are not for the timid, unsure, passive parrot person. Because if you are any of those things, they will dominate you - they are way too smart for their (or our) own good. It would really help if breeders, pet stores, etc. would take the time to get to know their customers as much as possible and try to do the best they can to make sure the match is a good one. I think we, who are in the business of raising parrots for sale, are improving at this. Failures are inevitable, but I think the tide is turning. : -)

For the record - I LOVE my strong-willed, sometimes obnoxious, hilariously funny, clever talking green and black bird that can sometimes be so clingy I can't scrape her off. (G) She is to me what lint is fleece, velcro is to felt, static is to nylon. <G>

A - From Cathy Henderson:

Jardines for me have been just plain "FUN". Some are more vocal than the other Africans I have. They pick up sounds and tunes quite easily. I have one that has picked up words very easily. Another one seems to talk with his mouth closed. Playing is a second nature for Jardines. It's not unusual for me to see them playing in their acrylic squares or lying on their backs. Strangers don't seem to bother them. I had one female that if there was someone she didn't like (my DAD) she'd fluff up and make it quite clear to stay clear!

When it comes to "one on one" Jardines are ready any time! Mine love having their heads and necks rubbed. If I get distracted and stop rubbing mine will snuggle closer to my neck and rub their head against my face, as a reminder..."I'm still here"! (I know you're not supposed to allow any bird on your shoulder, but I do with a lot of mine). Jardines love to eat! Fruits seem to be their favorite - both dried or fresh fruit. Jardines seem to understand when things get really busy. One look into those beautiful eyes and I'm mush! I open the cage door, and it's time for kisses!

A - From Helene:

Gizmo, the greater J, is 4 years old. He will let anyone hold him. He has a farly large vocabulary for a J (learned primarily from the Grey), but it's hard to understand him--he has a little computer voice. He is very strong-willed so you really need to know about handling birds before you consider a J. His terrible twos stage was really awful for both him and me. He's passed that now, and is very sweet and cuddly. He's also stubborn, naughty, fearless, very funny and utterly charming.

A - From Cindy:

Well, Snickers my greater is turning 7 months old already. He has recently discovered how good head scratches feel and enjoys cuddling now. He positively enjoys being outside on the deck in his travel cage. All those new birds' sounds kept him busy for days. He loves to shower with me but doesn't always want to get wet, so I just let him soak up the steam. He has been on several car rides and it didn't seem to phase him. His nick name is "bat bird" as you all know; this behaviour is common with our J's, but you have to see it to believe it :). I have noticed lately that he enjoys chewing up wood far more than he used to. I think it must be an increase in beak strength, after all, he is growing up. He adores his hand toys, emptying his toy box as fast as I put everything back (we go through this several times a day).

He has lots of different chirps and whistles and often sounds like a muttering old man. He says pretty bird, your O.K., Oh Oh, and how are you, fairly clear now. A couple of weeks ago he went through a testing mommy stage and was very nippy, but it seems to have passed for now :) I gave him the evil eye a lot and told him NO BITE very firmly and I'm very proud to say that I never once pulled my hand away in fear. I got pinched pretty good though a couple of times. Now when he comes after my toes, that's a different story. This is his latest thing, chasing toes. He waddles right across the kitchen floor as fast as he can, looking for toes. I don't like to do the dance (it's difficult to chop bird veggies and dance at the same time if you value your fingers) and I'm not brave enough to let him go ahead and do a taste test, so I just pick him up and give him a change of
scenery. It would be nice if he would just walk around exploring without the toe thing :)

Having this bird has truly been a life changing experience, so unique. I find myself longing to spend time with him when I've been busier than normal, and it might sound strange to say, but I feel that way more about Snickers than I do my 4 boys, oh yes I miss them too, but Snickers is my buddy and I'm definitely his :) He tolerates my hubby and my 2nd son, but he openly loves me, yes even to to point of regurgitated food running down my shoulder :)

A - From Ginny Caputo:

Jardines vary a lot in temperament. I think that a bird who is well socialized & comes from a caring breeder is a much better bet than a bird whose socialization might have been left to chance. I now have two Jardines, one of which was not particularly well socialized. The other comes from a very good breeder but she did not work out for the people who had her for a year. I have only had her for a week so the jury is still out on her personality. However, the two J's appear to have some striking differences. The similarities are that both have a distinct feisty streak. Both have large beaks & are capable of biting hard. Both are beautiful birds & have much charm. Both are headstrong. The one I have had longer is very headstrong & tests me from time to time as to who is in charge. He will sometimes bite. He gets territorial & will *charge* me when he feels that way. He likes to play in a rowdy manner. I use the pronoun HE but Wingnut might be a SHE. I do not know. He likes head scratches as does the newer J. But at his own convenience. He lets me give him wingpit tickles but the newer J does not. I went through several months of working with Wingnut to get him to be less nippy & to go by the rules. He needs to be dealt with consistently. They are very smart little birds with a lot of brain in a small body.

Sadie, my newer J companion, is at this moment insisting on sitting on me. If I put her down on the table next to me, she flies onto me. I think she needs a clip. But she is very proud of her accomplishment! <g> I love Lesser Jardines & am willing to put up with a hard bite from time to time. They sometimes have an *attitude* but I like their *attitude*.

If you need a very gentle parrot, I would be very careful to choose a Jardine which is gentle right from the beginning because some J's are not gentle. And many go through a nippy period which can be discouraging if you are not prepared to deal with it.

A - From JD:

Dealing with a new Jardine...Atilla...sure is trying. My only hope is that someday she might be "sweet" or fun. Today, she has a terrible temper. She will be fine one moment...and the next...she starts complaining. I got bit again last night. Can't say I am a very happy camper when that happens, because she can deliver a good one.

Had to do her nails for the first time. Ended up rolling her in a towel and put her in the birdy binder...she was NOT happy about that. But, later...I was actually able to cuddle her for awhile, talk soft to her, and scratch her head...kiss her beak even! I wonder...was she in shock from the experience...or humbled by my control during the nail trim?

I really need encouragement with this bird, because I definitely did not want another bird that did not like to be touched...my Eclectus fits that bill. He merely tolerates touching...but at least he does not bite me. I find Atilla hard to work with...she wants to be on me...close to my face...on my shoulder IF I would allow it, and I don't. But, she wants that close personal attention on her terms. What is the best way to work with this? I have scolded her...ignored her...put her up. But, she begs to get out...is always willing to...but, we have interaction problems. And she is not that interested in toys yet. She begs to be fed...and that is a chore now...cause she wants that on her own terms too...and that doesn't work either. So, we both end up frustrated.

Sad, that the most touching time I've had with her was after the nail trim. I really feel that I should be doing more handling to get her used to "touch"...but, it's just not happening yet. She's 4mos old...how long does this period last...or am I stuck with a
temperamental bird for good. How do the rest of you with biting Js handle the situation? I see some of your birds don't want to out of their cages...and Atilla is not like that. She just wants to do everything her way once she gets out...and doesn't like it when it's not her way.

A - From Wendy Taylor:

My own opinion is that it is unrealistic to blame Ros's Jardine Flattop's nippiness and 'one-person' bird behaviour on coming from a bad breeder or on poor training/socialization. Obviously, proper socialization is important for the development of a pet bird, but it is not going to entirely suppress the natural personality of a particular bird. And I personally wouldn't want to do that anyway.

What attracted me to my Jardine's, Sparky, was her tremendous love of life and boundless energy. She played on her own very well, and seemed to have no fear of people. After bringing her home, I learned that her character was such that she likes to be boss, and this meant being nippy. I got several painful bites from her during her first year but I doubt that training during her first 4 months of life (before I purchased her) would have prevented this.

Diligent training on my part resulted in a much better behaved bird. Sparky rarely bites now, but I cannot totally trust her. I've learned to respect her space and read her body language and can normally avoid getting bitten when she occasionally goes into 'overload'. It has been a mutual learning experience and we have trained each other to be respectful.

Sparky is not a cuddly bird. That doesn't mean she's not affectionate. She loves to get a good head scratch, and shows her devotion verbally with certain whistles and physically with certain body language when we spend time together. She tolerates hugs from me but she doesn't really like to cuddle. And that's ok by me.

Sparky is not a one-person bird. She loves my close friends and she loves strangers. She adores being the centre of attention.

I think you'll find, talking to other members of this list, that there really is a big spectrum in the behaviour of Jardines. Some are nippy, some are not, some are one-person birds, some are not, some are cuddly, some are not, some are good talkers, some are not, etc. But I think you'll find a few common traits - Jardine's do seem to love life, play well, eat well, have steady personalities with few phobias and tend to be quiet compared to some other parrot species. Beyond that, each bird has his/her own personality and I think it's these individual traits that make this species so interesting and wonderful.

Q2 - Will my J learn to talk?

A - From Rita:

Jardine's have the potential to become pretty darn good talkers - some seem to pick it up more naturally (like baby Jocelyn) than others. Some talk very clear (like a Gray) and others mumble - then there are those like my Ruckus who do both - which did not seem that uncommon in the surveys I received.

Then there is Marilyn W's Jardy - who talks only very little. Personally - I think he has been quite spoiled and catered to from the start - so what did he need to learn to talk for? Especially with Marilyn returning his Jardine's calls to him. Jardy didn't learn much English, so Marilyn must have figured "can't teach him, join him!" (VBG)

I believe they all have the potential - but like all parrots - you have to be willing to accept them for all the other wonderful traits they have to offer - in case the bird you obtain never learns to talk.

Q3 - Will my J learn other vocalizations, i.e. whistling, singing, noises?

A - From GinnyR:

Yes. My bird imitates the birds outside, barks like a dog, etc. I discourage whistling.

Q4 - How loud are J's?

A - From GinnyR:

Not loud compared to a screaming Cockatoo. They are loud when activity (such as early morning get-up) increases, then they sing & chirp, sometimes squawk.

Editor's comment: one has to keep in mind that all birds are individuals and some birds of the same species may be noisier than others. Although Jardines' seem to be on average quieter than Cockatoos, they still have the capacity to scream. It is important to address a potential screaming problem early rather than ignore it.

Q5 - How well do J's get along with other birds or other pets?

A - From GinnyR:

My J is always in the same room with another bird, but never on the same play stand with another bird. They may become defensive of their territories. You don't want pet birds biting each other. Always be careful.

Q6 - Can I teach my J tricks?

A - From Steve:

In January, our vet, Greg, gave us a present for Berkeley, a basketball hoop and ball. The hoop is about 5" across and on a stand 9" high. The basket is made of plastic chain. The ball is a 3" wiffle ball.

When he gave it to us, Greg joked that he expected to see Berkeley sink a basket by June. I took this as a challenge.

My first concern was that the whole thing seemed too big for Berkeley. It looked like it was designed with a macaw or cockatoo in mind. The first thing I did was replace the ball with something more manageable. I picked up a pack of wiffle golf balls in the sporting goods department of a department store. $1.50 for 6 bird toys - not a bad deal.

We started off easy. I put the ball beside her on the edge of her play area. I tapped it and said "Give daddy the ball". She fussed with it a bit and eventually knocked it off the edge. She was rewarded with a "Good girl!", a scratch on the head and a twirly. "Twirly" is our terminology for a piece of rotini (spiral pasta). Berkeley loves crunching twirlies and, although she's never said the word, she knows what it means.

It took her about an hour to understand that, if she knocked the ball off the play area, she'd get a twirly. I was impressed. This was the first time she'd ever had to perform a task that didn't directly involve getting a treat. Tasks up to this point have been of the get-the-twirly-out-of-the-whatever variety. I was surprised at how easily she adapted to the concept of being rewarded for an unrelated task.

After she became adept at knocking the ball off the play area, I made it more difficult. She was now encouraged to drop the ball into my hand, which I held below the edge of the play area. I changed the cue to "Put the ball in Daddy's hand", and reinforced that with alternately tapping the ball and pointing to my palm.

At first, I moved my hand to catch the ball. When she hit my hand, she was rewarded (twirly, scratch, good girl). The response for a miss was "No... Try again". She caught on fairly quickly and at this point started picking up the ball to get better control over it.

We kept this going for a week, until she developed the coordination to hit my hand consistently. Over the next 4 weeks I tried a number of variations:

• drop into a cup below the edge ("Put the ball in the cup")
• drop into a cup slightly above the edge
• drop into a cup sitting on the play area
• drop into a cup raised 3" above the play area

During this time I started weaning her away from expecting twirlies every time. She now received a "Good girl" and a scratch each time and a twirly once in a while.

At this point, I introduced the hoop stand. I'd already shown her the hoop a few times so that she'd be comfortable with it. I knew she couldn't drop the ball into the hoop - it's 9" high. I attached the stand to the side of the play area so that the hoop was only 5" above the play area. She caught on quick. I was beginning to suspect that I was severely underestimating her abilities.

After a couple of days, I raised the hoop to its full height. It still looked much too high for her. I tried using a platform to give her a bit more height. She didn't like the idea. Instead, she tried to put the ball in without any help.

After a few false starts, she stretched up as high as she could and tipped the ball over the rim. I was so impressed that I picked her up and fussed over her, saying "Good girl!" over and over. My wife came into the room to find out what all the comotion was about. I set everything up again and cued Berkeley to do her thing. She did it again, with much less effort.

Q7 - What factors affect the temperament of a pet bird?

A - From Jean Pattison:

The temperament isn't in the egg (maybe just a little is) before hatching. It's in the nest with the parents. If the parents are calm and secure, they are relaxed and this is reflected in the babies. Raising all Africans I have a pretty calm environment, and the breeders settle in pretty quick. First-time parents are usually always nervous, and their babies may be high strung, and a little to a lot nippy. After they have had 3,4,5,6, etc clutches they are more and more relaxed. The 1st clutch babies can not even begin to compare to the latter clutches from these pairs.

I used to have a woman hand feeding for me. She would wean the babies out and bring them to me. A few times I would have a baby that I would never be able to sell. They would be horribly phobic. Once I started feeding my own babies things started to fall into place.

I have called this sibling aggression. While the hand-feeder prepared the food, the babies would pick on one. This was a conditioning thing. By the time the feeder entered the room, all the picking had ceased, but there would be one baby cowering in the corner, or not quite so anxious to greet the hand-feeder as the others. I began to see that if there were 2 of one sex they would pick on the single of the opposite sex. This may be a phenomenon of nature to drive the opposite sex from the flock to prevent inbreeding. (Only speculation on my part.) Of course when experiencing this behavior, the feeder should separate the babies for a day or two and then group them again. This is a very, very subtle display and if the feeder doesn't know about it *ahead of time* it will be completely missed.

Another thing I learned was the breeder birds were very nervous with their first clutches and you would have very nervous babies. As the parents became seasoned breeders they would naturally become more calm and consequently, their babies would be calmer and sweeter. The difference between 1st clutch and 5th clutch babies is unbelievable.

Also how the babies are pulled from the parents influences the temperament. If the parents are in the nest and they growl and fight, the babies become terrified (great first meeting). I believe this can affect them for the rest of their lives. If you have good steady parents, the hand-feeder's work is cut in half.

If a Jardine is from one of these situations, it may be a very hard road for all concerned. I have one of my original sibling aggression babies, and he is an absolute monster - But..... I do love his "bad" attitude.

Q8 - Are Jardine's parrots cuddly birds?

A - From Ros:

My Flattop (have had her almost 4 years) is not and never will be a cuddly bird. She went through her stage of nippiness and though very good now she is not beyond a good nip. I can hand Flattop over for someone to hold but I sternly tell her to be good and supervise very carefully because she sometimes bites people other than myself just because. She is not a all around bird, she is my bird not because others did not want to interact with her but because she chose to be a one person bird. She talks and quite well but no where near as good as a CAG or TAG. I am in contact with several other jardines and find them much the same. I love Flattop with all my heart and when I purchased her I wanted a bird that could talk a bit and loved me.(I did not care if she liked anyone else) So for me a Jardine was a good choice. I miss not being able to cuddle her (she is a quick kiss, gotta run bird) and WOW when I listen to the Greys I wish she would say and learn more but......I am very satisfied with her. I feel sometimes our love for Jardines is misleading to others, yes they are great birds, but if you wanted a great talker or a cuddly bird or a family bird I think you picked the wrong species. Don't get me wrong I am not criticizing Jardines but trying to face facts as I see them.

Q9 - Do Jardine's parrots have the tendency to bite?

A - From Helene:

As I read the "J" list, I realized that many of you have very young "J's". Gizmo (Greater) was born in '93, Rita was his mom so you know he was super-socialized and loved and I got him as soon as he was weaned. He came into a home with a pair of cockatiels, a mini macaw, a lovebird, a CAG, a pair of green cheeked conures, a dog, three kids and me. I was fully prepared for the terrible two's and wasn't the least bit disappointed. Gizmo is an extremely strong personality. Thanks to my children and the other pets, I was a stronger Mom. Many many times, Giz would bite HARD and look me directly in the eye and say DON'T BITE! On the other hand, he has always been very outgoing, happy to go to complete strangers, loves everyone.

He has settled down considerably since those early days. Every once in a while he ATTEMPTS to nail me, but I know my little boy and know exactly when to watch out for it. He still tests me, still wants to have his own way, still wants cuddling only when HE wants cuddling (and then all over and as long as I have time to do it). Gizmo loves food and eats anything. He loves his toys and regularly spends time trying to beat them up and growling at them. I can't give him hand toys because they all have to go on the floor. He loves toys with knots so he can unknot them. I discourage all the birds from the shoulder and all including Gizmo sit on my lap or the arm of the chair or on my forearm. Gizmo is sitting on my lap right now, leans his beak up against me and waits for scratches.

My advice to new J owners: be patient, be strong, and enjoy

A - From Wendy Taylor:

Now that we're on the topic of biting Jardines - my 3 year old Jardine, Sparky, was a biter from the day she was hatched. This behaviour seems rather typical of Jardine's and I think it's correct to assume that it is NOT a PHASE, but rather a domineering behaviour that has to be controlled. There is a lot of good information out there on preventing biting behaviour (Pet Bird Report magazine, Mattie Sue Athan's book "Guide to a Well Behaved Parrot", etc.) and all Jardine owners should invest in this literature - - it's much cheaper than getting a behavourist. Use your own common sense when evaluating the different techniques and try to use techniques that your particular bird will feel comfortable with. And BE CONSISTENT!

After about 8 months of working with Sparky, I was able to control her biting (and the frequency and severity of episodes were reduced with time over the 8 months).

After gaining control of the problem, you have to keep using the techniques to establish who is the dominant member of the flock or the biting behaviour will return. I recently had to clip Sparky's wings as her biting behaviour returned once she was able to fly. Establishing dominance over her became more difficult once she was able to fly and disciplining her became virtually impossible.

I think all hand-fed Jardine owners can assume that a biting problem CAN be controlled. It's up to you to provide the guidance your bird needs. But if you put the effort in, you WILL succeed.

BTW, those of you with birds who prefer your family members to yourself - - I would recommend looking at how your family member interacts with the bird. Sparky just loves my friend who lets her get away with murder. My friend doesn't use the UP command or any of the dominance techniques that I ask him to use and Sparky just adores him. Unfortunately, I'm the one who has to deal with the bad behaviour when he's not playing with her. Try to get your friends and family members to use the same techniques that you do. It will probably save you a lot of hassle in the long run.

A - From Scott Petrovich:

Trust me, biting and temperamental behavior will get better as long as you apply "nurturing dominance" and regular training in a neutral area. Shaka is 1 1/2 years old now and he really just started becoming super lovable and willing to interact with other people recently. Yes, he had plenty of lovable moments before, but also a lot of bad ones too. The people who have been on this list for awhile can attest to that - it doesn't seem like to long ago I was writing desperate, discouraged posts. It really just takes a lot of love and even more patience. I also learned quickly to realize when Shaka was going into "overload" and when that happens you kind of throw nurturing dominance out the window and just let the bird calm down. There isn't any reasoning or stepping up when they are in overload! Shaka now is very lovable and cuddly but there are still times I need to respect his space and be careful how I handle him, etc. That seems to be a permanent thing and I accept that because Shaka is an individual and if he doesn't want to do something or be in a certain place, I need to respect him (and that BEAK:). For the most part he does what I want him to now and I believe there is mutual love and respect between us. I am sure I will be nipped every now and then, but that is just a part of owning a parrot and if it happens I will get over it.

Diet: require typically the same - nutritious, well researched pellet based diet supplemented with vegetables, grains, and fruits which they will enjoy plastering all over your walls and floor

Bathing: required every other day, often daily in the winter time where air is dry from artificial heat. types of baths will vary, depending on what the breeder has offered while raising, or what you discover your bird likes

Interaction with Strangers: Js typically will perform and not be bothered by strangers, where greys can be more aloof - however, a well socialized Grey will not be bothered by new people. Most birds will clam up with strangers around. Do not expect either to allow major cuddling by a complete stranger.

Diet: require typically the same - nutritious, well researched pellet based diet supplemented with vegetables, grains, and fruits which they will enjoy plastering all over your walls and floor

Bathing: required every other day, often daily in the winter time where air is dry from artificial heat. types of baths will vary, depending on what the breeder has offered while raising, or what you discover your bird likes

Interaction with Strangers: Js typically will perform and not be bothered by strangers, where greys can be more aloof - however, a well socialized Grey will not be bothered by new people. Most birds will clam up with strangers around. Do not expect either to allow major cuddling by a complete stranger.

Q10 - Are Jardine's parrots suitable pets for children?

A - From Rita Shimniok:

We have a Lesser J here named Li'l Jo who is just wonderful with kids - she has interacted with kids age 3 and up so far. Jardine's are probably the most headstrong of J's, TAGs (Timneh African Greys), and BWPs (Bronze-Winged Pionus). Of course the TAG would reign as the most talented talker. Pionus are pretty quiet and don't learn a whole lot of English - but are certainly capable of some.

When you have kids and you want a bird - of course it is no secret that all birds bite. But there are ways to help young baby birds become accustomed to children - it helps to buy a well socialized bird - and one already used to children if possible (not always necessary though).

A - From Ginny Caputo:

Both my Jardines are capable of biting hard & both have formed trusting attachments to me. I would not trust them with young
children. Their bite is too hard & they are too headstrong IMHO for children to handle. While they are not as high strung as my Grey, they do tend to be a little shy at times & are a bit sensitive. I don't think they would be a good choice for a young child as a pet.

A - From Cathy Henderson:

My Jardines seem to enjoy being where the action is. Kids with balls or roller blading through the den don't seem to bother them.

A - From Perry and Kristin:

It does bring up an interesting philosophical question though about bird ownership and that is: how much information is enough? Perhaps what we have learned the most is that although there are characteristics of a breed, it is the individual bird's personality that is the most important trait.

Sadie was purchased -- we thought after gaining some insight into birds -- from a highly reputable dealer. The main problem here is that we chose the feistier of the two birds -- we could have gotten the one that Martha has that allows you to turn her upside down while she lies on her back - -- or at least she did in the store. Sadie on the other hand was trying to climb on our shoulders from day one. Our mistake was not knowing that what we really wanted was a cuddler not an explorer. We let Sadie on our shoulders early on only to realize what a mistake that is.

Q11 - How do Jardine's compare to, say, Timneh African Greys as pets?

A - From Rita Shimniok:

Differences between Jardine's and Timneh African Greys from one who has both:

Jardines are often more strong willed than a TAG - therefore it may take a person with a strong personality to set the proper guidelines in order to keep their bird in line. Jardine's are not for one who can be easily intimidated by a large beak - yes, they can be sweet - but Js are very clever and will test out new people to see if they can gain the top position in the flock.

(Hopefully anyone considering a parrot has studied flock behavior and realizes that humans become flock members for a bird that lives with people vs. other birds. If not - I strongly suggest a subscription to the Pet Bird Report magazine.)

Both Jardine's and TAG's are active birds - and will require an assortment of amusing toys. Both birds play with the toys in their cage and tend to pass the time while their people are gone without problem. The key here, of course, is obtaining a young bird that has had exposure to toys, and time alone while being raised. If you get a baby who does not know how to play with toys - you will have to teach them.

Timneh's are typically more mild mannered than a Jardine's - therefore perhaps easier for one to maintain top flock position with - but they DO test you also, as will any juvenile parrot. A Grey, however, is more likely to bluff (as in not actually deliver a bite) than a Jardine's. I believe Jardine's to be quite fearless. (VBG)

All Greys are extremely intelligent, so if the bird is to be left alone while at work or school, and there are no other pet birds in the home for company - I highly recommend that televisions and radios be set up on timers to deliver interesting shows and/or music. A Jardine's will appreciate this too, of course. A variety of toys is a key preventative in reducing the possibility of boredom. The more intelligent the bird, the more challenging the toys should be. Puzzle type toys are great for Greys.

A well socialized Grey, as well as Jardine, will not pluck it's feathers from stress, change, or boredom as long as the bird is provided with plenty to do while its people are gone - and receives plenty of interaction when its people are home. Both of these birds require several hours a day of people to parrot interaction. The entire time does not mean that one has to hold it in their lap for cuddles - as there are various levels of parrot/people interaction. It can be as easy as having the bird out on a playpen while you are home supervising, having the bird hang out with you while watching tv or studying, and of course hands on interaction where you are petting, preening and scratching their heads. All birds need all types of interaction - as is such that they would receive from fellow flock mates in the wild.

As was mentioned by another list member, if a teenager is interested in obtaining a bird - they must have the back up support and interest from their parents. I receive so many calls from families who want to sell or give up their bird, as their youngster is going off to college and the bird "belonged to them". Many parents have no desire to maintain the enormous upkeep and responsibility of a parrot while their child is off to college - to come home on weekends, every other weekend, then once a month, once every couple of months, etc. Dorm rooms do not allow parrots, and if they did, it is likely not a good place for a parrot since non bird owning students find it amusing to give birds alcohol or other substances detrimental to their health.

One on one comparisons:

Beauty: Jardine's: Glowing green and black with orange accents; TAG's - elegant charcoal grey with maroon tail
Eyes: J's: mischievous, clever; TAGs - intelligent, wise, read your mind

Personal Interaction: whether either of these birds is cuddly or aloof will depend upon how it is raised, how confident the new owners are in handling the bird and continuing the lessons taught by the breeder. A person who is not confident handling larger parrots and are afraid of "THE BEAK' should really consider a smaller species.

Size: J's: a Lesser J will require less cage space than a Greater J or TAG. Lesser J - 20x20x24 or 36" minimum; Greater Js and TAGs: - 36"x24"x24" ideal minimum. If someone in the home is home all day and the bird will be out of its cage for the greater share of the day - a somewhat smaller cage would be all right.

Noise: J's can be noiser than TAGs if they are "taught" to scream for what they want; TAGs can be annoying if they learn to imitate other screaming birds, smoke alarms, microwaves, etc. TAG's will in almost all cases, be the best talker of the two

Activity: Both very active, require plenty of toys to be changed around in the cage now and then

Diet: require typically the same - nutritious, well researched pellet based diet supplemented with vegetables, grains, and fruits which they will enjoy plastering all over your walls and floor

Bathing: required every other day, often daily in the winter time where air is dry from artificial heat. types of baths will vary, depending on what the breeder has offered while raising, or what you discover your bird likes

Interaction with Strangers: Js typically will perform and not be bothered by strangers, where greys can be more aloof - however, a well socialized Grey will not be bothered by new people. Most birds will clam up with strangers around. Do not expect either to allow major cuddling by a complete stranger.

BEHAVIOR TRAINING
-----------------

Q1 - My J is going through a biting phase. What do I do?

A - From GinnyR:

NEARLY all birds go through a biting stage. The new owner must apply perserverance and stick with a daily schedule of handling the bird. "Pass the parrot" is an excellent game to teach the bird the STEP-UP command, and to go from one person to another without biting. Don't confuse biting with using the beak for balance. If the bird is definitly biting, I yell NO and gently shake my hand to get it off balance. When the bird is not biting, but being nice, I praise and talk to the bird in a sweet voice. Children should always wear at least two thick socks on their hand when handling a bird. Never let a child get their face close to a bird or sit on the shoulder. Most important. Once you start to work with a young biting bird, don't give up. Keep working until the desired behavior is achieved. At this point offer a special treat for the bird.

A - From MarilynN:

Rule #1: If you want to pick up and hold Kiwi you do NOT let him scare you away, you hang in there until the mission is accomplished. You are not allowed to give up!

For us this meant that if Kiwi bit or attempted to bite, the person holding him or trying to pick him up had no option but to see it through. We would tell him "STOP", and occasionally shake our hand slightly to get him off balance so he would stop the biting. My feeling was if we consistently kept holding him even though he was biting, he would eventually catch on that biting got him no wear. If we put him back to the cage it would reinforce that he got what he wanted. He would learn to bite to go back to his cage.

Rule #2: If Kiwi falls accicently to the floor, (on the good advice of people on this list, we did not purposely drop him) the poor sucker who got bit has to pick him up again.

Again my reasoning is that if he ends up on the floor, you do not want to reinforce the fact that he succeeded in getting away from you, he has to know who is in charge.

Since Kiwi is afraid of very little, we were able to use heavy socks on the kids and my husbands hand without scaring him. This helped a lot, since it took away the fear my family had in handling him. It was obvious that Kiwi could sense apprehension and would react by biting. With the socks on, my family seemed a lot more confident and Kiwi reacted favorably to this. These problems all came so easy to me since I was the handfeeder and was rarely bitten.

Rule #3: Everyone that wants to be part of his life must handle him everyday. We played a lot of pass the bird with Kiwi at the beginning. We have stopped this, but I think it is something that should be continued. We need to get back into this. I've never really tried the evil eye. It probably would work now that Kiwi has feelings and love for us, but at the beginning I don't think it would have worked until an actual bond was formed. I think this takes a while. If a bird isn't bonded to you then I don't think it would matter to him whether he is pleasing you or dissapointing you.

As far as setting rules, what I mean about this is that he has to follow certain commands. The most important to me is the "UP" and "DOWN" commands. Kiwi knows that he is expected to step up on my hand when he hears the "UP" command and step down off of me onto wherever I want him to go when I say the "DOWN' command. I have NEVER had a problem getting him back in his cage. There has never been a time when I have not said either "UP" or "DOWN" when moving him from one location to another. He also knows the "STOP" command, which he knows means to stop the activity he is doing. Whether this is chewing on my rings or biting.

Q2 - How can I potty train my J?

A - From Rita:

One of the greatest drawbacks to owning birds is their unfortunate tendency to let nature take its course - right down the back of your favorite shirt. You can, however, potty train your pet bird. The key to this accomplishment is consistency and diligence.

We have been successful in potty training a pet cockatiel and lovebird, despite the fact that some articles say that smaller birds are much more difficult to train. Customers have also had success training with the following method. While some birds learn so well that they actually get on their appointed t-stand to defecate, others are not so well-mannered. To avoid accidents, a bird is placed on a t-stand or held over newspaper and given the learned command, and it does the deed. Quite simple, but it is all a matter of timing.

The key to potty training is timing. Get to know your bird. Some articles tell you not to attempt to potty train young birds as it may be too difficult for them. I however, disagree, and feel that the earlier you start the better. The greatest difference in training a young bird versus an adult is the fact that young birds defecate more frequently. All you have to do is time your bird between droppings, younger birds may be only 5 minutes apart, adults 15 minutes. (Of course the larger the species the greater the amount of time.) As your bird matures the number of minutes between droppings will increase. When nervous or stressed, such as when a baby bird arrives in a new home, defecation may only be a couple of minutes apart.

The first step is to choose a suitable word for the deed. Choose carefully, keeping in mind that whatever word you may find amusing to you now, may come back to haunt you. Never underestimate the talking ability of parrots, who often learn the words you least want them to say. Whatever word you choose, keep it simple, everyone in the family must be consistent in using the same signal. Each time your bird defecates, say the chosen word. Continue to do this for about a month so the bird will learn to associate the word with the act of defecation. Also make note of the exact number of minutes between episodes. When you go to take the bird out of its cage, wait until it is almost ready to go and use the word. Most birds will alert you to this natural act by squatting on their perch or raising their tail, once again, get to know your bird and its mannerisms. After the bird defecates, praise it and allow it to leave the cage or perch. Watch the clock, and a few minutes before the next episode, place the bird gently in its cage or on the portable T-stand, and say the word. Repeat the word when the bird actually defecates and profusely reward it with praise and allow it to leave the perch to play with it once again. A small food treat may be just the reward to help your bird learn. If the bird has an accident, even if it is your fault for not watching the elapsed time, say "no" and the designated word. Put the bird in its cage or on its T-stand. Watch the clock again, and reward the bird when it goes on command by praise or a small treat. You may find it helpful to set the kitchen timer after each episode to help remind you when you need to return the bird to its perch to defecate.

This method is simple and works well. Most birds will learn to go potty on command, and what a great way to impress the veterinarian for a fecal exam! Once again, the key steps are: 1. Choose a simple word or phrase, that is only used for that purpose. 2. Be consistent - all family members who play with the bird need to participate. If one person tries to potty train the bird while it is out of the cage, and another household member just lets it defecate where it pleases, the bird will become confused. 3. Carefully monitor the time. It is better to place the bird on the perch a few minutes earlier to avoid accidents. Our birds learned what was expected of them as soon as they are placed on their portable T-stand.

Good luck with this method of potty training. If successful, you will certainly impress all your visiting friends who think pet birds are messy, and your favorite clothes will maintain their good condition. (Hint: while in training donning an older shirt over your good clothes is a good idea.)

A - From Richie:

First: Every time Scott and I saw Rusty poop outside his cage (usually on us or the sofa) we said "Poopie, go poopie, poopie!" then "good bird!" when he was done. We established positive association with performing the action of pooping on his own and the word poopie.

Second: He always preferred not to go in his cage all night and always went on ME in the morning while I was getting water for both birds. So as he did it ON me next to the kitchen sink I said the poopie words again. Then a few weeks later I held him over the sink in the morning, told him to go, and miracle of miracles he did it on command in the kitchen sink! I asked him to go in the kitchen sink for one week as I repeated the same words. Then keeping the same time schedule, first thing in the a.m. I moved him into the bathroom over the toilet the next week and he went perfectly the first time (and ever since). He now goes anytime he is asked to in a toilet and at anyone's house.

We did *not* want him totally dependent on us for permission to go, so we never encouraged him to hold it if he was in his cage or anywhere else. Rusty will make an honest effort to go on command any time we ask him when he is out of his cage. We never scold him for accidents, because if we remember to take him to the toilet or hold a napkin under his butt and request it, he will always go. We make it *our* responsibility to remember, because if he is left home alone, or someone has to bird sit for us it would be terrible if he held it in and became sick or in uncomfortable because the new person (or nobody) did not give him permission to go. He always trys to be a good bird.

A - Marilyn W:

A friend of mine has a CAG & she is the one to thank for our "potty bucket" which her husband made for me similar to the one she has. This is just a rectangular Rubbermaid plastic washtub. On it he mounted a perch....the ends should not extend too much over the edge. I put a stack of newspaper in the bottom.

Jardy does not poop in his cage over night. So the first thing he has to do in the morning is poop. He used to go right away so we'd have the bucket in one hand when we opened the door so we could put him on it immediately. He will not use the bucket when it's sitting on the floor....so we have to put it on the counter or on the table. We use the command word doodle....pick any word you choose & use it consistently when you put him on the bucket. As soon as he goes, praise & take him off & give him some attention or a healthy treat.

The first thing you need to do is get him to understand what the bucket is for so you want to put him there when you know he has to go.

You need to keep track of the intervals between poops so you can put him there much as you would take a small puppy outside....on a regular basis.

The training is a partnership....you have a job to do too. (G)

Jardy doesn't poop in his cage during the day either so again it's a trip to the potty bucket as soon as he comes out of his cage.

I like the bucket because I can put him down & not stand there waiting & he can do his business without sitting on an impatient finger.

My friend's CAG is put on her bucket the moment she comes out of the cage & she can't get shoulder time with her buddy til she goes....so she will potty even if it's only a little bit.

Jardy isn't perfect & neither am I. He makes his messes....and I clean them up. And a few years ago before Jardy, I would have thought a poop that big was totally gross. Now it's just a fact of life.

I have a friend with 2 maroon belly conures & she's very disciplined about watching her bird's body language & being very aware of how much time has passed & she never gets pooped on. And her birds are so good about their potty training that they will do little tiny poops just to do something when she holds them over a newspaper.

Until you get the hang of this (both of you), you may want to try keeping that strategic area over a neutral spot rather than the spots that upset you when they get pooped on.

Most of this is just common sense....like putting him on the bucket as soon as you see your bird start stretching after a snooze. Jardy is not a shoulder bird so we don't get poops there.

Q3 - Is it dangerous to potty train using a verbal cue? It's possible that some parrots are so eager to please that they will "hold it" until given the verbal cue, which is a problem if bird is somewhere (e.g. birdsitters) where the cue isn't given for an extended period.

A - From Rita:

When potty training, I think one has to use common sense and not be too rigid in training. I never "get on their case" if birds poop in their cage or on a playpen. I just watch them and work on potty training when they are on my person or the furniture.

Also, a veternarian recently wrote (I read it somewhere) that birds will defecate when they absolutely have to - no matter how well potty trained.

Q4 - What do I do when my J shows signs of reaching sexual maturity?

A - From Jean (paraphrased)

Do not stroke her back or anywhere she may construe as sex.<g> Do not give her a sleep hut or tent or anything that could be a nest.

Q5 - How long will this breeding behaviour continue?

A - From Jean:

In weeks I don't know. Seems like maybe just a couple then they give it up for a few months, maybe 4-6, then do it again for a "couple" of weeks then off again. I have never really noticed it becoming a habit or an obsession.

Q6 - Can the gender of a Jardine be determined from the type of breeding behaviour it displays?

A - From ScottL:

Absolutely. If it lays eggs, it is definitely female.

Q7 - What is the most important thing to teach my J?

A - From GinnyR:

That you will not hurt him/her, that it is loved. It takes time for a bird to learn to trust you.

JARDINE CAGE REQUIREMENTS
-------------------------

Q1 - What size cage is appropriate for my J?

A - From GinnyR:

The biggest cage you can afford!

A - From ScottP:

It seems like it is big, but trust me, the smallest size cage you want for a Lesser Jardine is 24"x24"x24". My Jardine Shaka's cage is 24x24x40 and he uses every inch! when he was younger (9-13 weeks) I had the grate moved halfway up the cage and secured so he could only use the bottom 20 inches. He was to clumsy to be climbing all the way to the top when he was that little. Now the grate is used underneath the cage on the stand as a shelf so he can forage on the bottom of the cage.

A - From Rita:

For a Greater Jardine's, something larger is better, but if they spend a lot of time out of the cage, 24x24x24 will be fine.

A - From Jean:

I breed tons of Jardines, the 24"X24" is great. Make sure the door is big.

Q2 - What size bar spacing is appropriate for my J?

A - From GinnyR:

Not greater than 1 inch, suitable for Lesser and Greater Jardines.

Q3 - What cage manufacturers do people on this list recommend?

A - From GinnyR:

Neon, California.

A - From Sheila:

CA cages hold up for a long time-do not use bleach in the cleaning process, it will eventually pit the paint. I like the playtop cages, as long as the bird won't be too high (which can cause aggressiveness). CA cage has WONDERFUL playtops, with curved ladders.

A - From Larry:

We have a CA Cage. It is 36X24X52 (Length, width, height) and has 1" bar spacing with a curved top. It's a great cage! We love it! (can you tell?) We also have a smaller CA Cage with a play top, and I have to say that the birds have enough room in the big cage to play (if you give them enough perches) without need for a playtop. Besides, with the rollers on the thing, you'd have to be Shaquille O'Neill to not have the birds above your head level. Get the cage, put some swings and perches in there, and watch the birds play play play!

As to the powdercoat: the smaller CA Cage we got is at least 5 years old and the powdercoat is still fresh as the day it rolled off the assembly line. I can't give you any idea how much longer it will last, but we expect at least a few more years before ANY wear and tear at all. Mind you, the current occupant of the cage is a Goffins, and they have a beak strength that I have NEVER felt with a Jardine. If Picot hasn't damaged it by now, it would probably take hand or power tools to damage it!

A - From Cindy:

I really liked the California cages, but eventually decided on a new model of the Kings Cage. It has a neopolitan top, silver hammertone finish (looks more pewter/black than silver), 3/4 inch bar spacing, and a pull out grate (I may not use the grate). Many of the Kings cages have the curly cue designs which I don't like, but this model doesn't. What I liked best about it was the size. 31" wide, 24" deep and 47" high. I will not be using the legs it comes with because it will make the cage higher than me, so I'm having my cousin the cabinet maker make a 10 inch oak stand with a tip out door so I have some storage space for toys and cage cover etc. I paid $475, got it from a local dealer. For the size I wanted (wider than 24"), I got a good deal. A Calif. cage 24"X24" would have cost about the same if I remember right.

A - From Michele:

I ordered the Expandible Habitats cage in 3'x2'x5'H. This cage has a nice setup for the bottom. There is a roll of heavy duty paper that unrolls for the bottom. Then you pull the end from one side each nite to remove the soiled paper. Makes cleaning much easier since the paper's always in place, just have to pull. Bad thing though is now I have to use the grate in the cage so it means cleaning the grate. I didn't use the grate before. But I think that's probably healthier anyway since he can't rummage around in the droppings or eat fallen food that a dropping has touched. So I have been just wiping any crud off the grate each nite & then just taking the grate out for a disinfecting on the weekend. All in all, seems like less work.

I bought my cage in stainless & so far like the finish. No more worries about peeling paint or toxins. Will have to see how it holds up but I am expecting it to out last my buddy!

Construction is very good. Much better quality than my last cage. Disadvantage though is that although I bought a 3x2 so I could fit in thru the door to take outside to clean (rather than the 2.5x2.5), it weighs over 200 lbs so I don't think its going anywhere!

I also ordered the inside shelf that goes with this. It is about 6" wide & goes inside the cage from front to back. Its made just like a cage with metal bars spaced about 3/4" apart. Works really well as an extra different kind of perch. I think it was approx $25 for a 2' long one.

Cage also has removable feed doors & front door for cleaning. They pretty much make cage to order so you can get doors & things where you want them.

Q4 - What other cage features should I look for, i.e playtops, doors, finish type, horizontal bars, etc?

A - From GinnyR:

I made the mistake of not getting a cage with outside feeder/water doors. When I have to go away, and a sitter takes care of the pets, the birds get upset with a new person opening the door, or biting occurs. Outside feeder access allows the caregiver to take care of a bird, without either getting harmed.

A - Rita:

Swing out feeder doors and crock holders that lock or keep crock from being pulled out and dumped as many Js are quite entertained by this past time. (G)

Q5 - What size & types of perches are right for my J's feet?

A - From GinnyR:

A variety of sizes. Minimum at least 1 inch. At least one long, huge comfort perch (high in the cage) for roosting will help keep the nails and feet smooth.

A - From Rita:

I highly recommend a Pedicure Perch somewhere in the cage to help control those sharp toenails.

Q6 - What things should I avoid in a cage?

A - From MarilynN:

I recall that many of the older cages have finishes that are not safe, and the cages with the scroll work at the top is also something a bird can get his head caught in.

A - From Rita:

No merging wires that can catch toenails or unfinished wire ends that can impale beaks.

A - From editor:

A number of people have had problems with the brass finishes. They tarnish after use & they can't get them clean. General feeling seems to be to stay away from these finishes.

A - From Larry:

The ZINC plating worries me a lot! Zinc is VERY toxic to birds and should be avoided at all costs! Go ahead and check out the CAGTAG-L FAQ at: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~garry/cagtag-l/faq/

Look in the TOXINS FAQ that you find there. There is plenty to read about how harmful this metal is to your bird.

A - From Rita:

We use galvanized wire flights in our aviaries, which also has some zinc in the welds. We completely and thoroughly wash down all new cages with vinegar/water solution to neutralize the zinc.

A - From Alice:

I believe galvanized metal DOES contain zinc also but I was under the impression that it is a very small or harmless amount and it can possibly be neutralized.

A - From K&C B:

Galvanized metal is coated with zinc to stop the normal steel corrosion. The difference is that the zinc coating would normally not chip or flake off of galvanized steel, whereas a zinc plating much like chrome or even brass plating can and does regularly chip, and flake. The bonding processes are very different. The zinc in galvanized product does in fact oxidize and form a whiteish powder. By using the vinegar / water rinse the oxidized zinc should be rinsed off. Typically the zinc oxide build up takes quite some time to appear.

Q7 - What other accessories are important?

A - From Rita & Jean:

An accessory that I feel is very beneficial is a water bottle - my Js tend to defecate or make soup in their water all the time. Check often because some birds like to push pellets up the tube and can cause it plug up. Furthermore, the water bottle should be cleaned and scrubbed with a bottle and nozzle brush every 48 hrs.

JARDINE FOOD REQUIREMENTS
-------------------------

Q1 - What should I feed my J?

A - From editor:

Most (not all) species of parrots require low fat low protein diets that are rich in vitamin A and calcium. Jardine's are one of them.

The most reliable way to ensure that the nutritional needs of your J are being met is to feed it a good pellet diet. Pellets are formulated to provide the nutrients required by avian species. However, since parrots have evolved from many different habitats with varying food supplies it is reasonable to think that there may be slightly different nutritional needs amongst different species. Unfortunately, we do not have any pellets formulated specifically for a J. Therefore, many people believe that other high quality people food, such as veggies, should be added to the diet. Especially important are foods rich in vitamin A such as carrots, sweet potatoes, red peppers, other orange, red or dark green vegetables.

Offering different foods also allows your J to eat a variety of textures & colors. While some people on this list prefer to feed 100% pellets, others believe there is psychological benefit to eating a variety of food. This may be more important for a pet bird who spends a significant amount of time in his cage than for a breeder or mated bird or a pet bird that has constant human companionship.

Most people on this list would probably agree that your J's diet should consist of a minimum of 70-80% pellets (of total caloric intake). This ensures that the minimum nutritional needs (vitamins, calcium, protein, etc.) will be met. The remaining 20-30% of the diet can include nutritious vegetables and some treats. One should keep in mind, however, that offering high-carbohydrate foods, such as pasta and peanuts, will reduce the J's appetite for pellets. Offer restricted quantities of such foods. As veggies are mostly water, they can be offered in more abundance.

Q2 - Are pellets a complete diet for my J?

A - From editor:

This is a controversial question. Pellets are designed by 'for profit' companies but are touted as a COMPLETE diet, intended to meet 100% of the nutritional needs of the average parrot if 100% of the caloric intake of the parrot is the pellet in question.

Most North American vets believe that pellets are a complete diet, and some will go so far as to discourage including other foods in the diet. However British vets disagree and encourage a varied diet of people foods.

Several breeders on this list have used pellets exclusively for their breeder birds and have achieved good results.

Q3 - What brands of pellets are good for my J?

A - From editor:

This topic is very controversial and there seems to be no consensus. The main issues that have been raised are

a) protein content - some brands have higher protein content than others. Some birds (J and non-J) have developed health problems (i.e. gout and kidney failure) that were believed to be due to high protein diets. Some species of bird seem more susceptible to this than others. List members Jean Pattison and Scott Lewis both recommend using pellets with protein content between 12 and 16% for Jardine's.

b) artificial colors - some members express concerns about the long term effects of artificial colors. Individual birds may have allergies to certain artificial colors. Sally Blanchard has suggested that artificial colors are responsible for some cases of feather picking and other behavior problems. However, many J's belonging to list members eat pellets with artificial colors & according to the owners are doing well.

c) price - some pellets may seem too expensive to use in quantity, though others can be ordered in large amounts at reduced prices.

Here are some posts that raise some issues you should keep in mind when selecting a pellet for your Jardine.

A - From Carol:

Packages of seed/pellets (at least the types I've tried) give "minimum" percentages of fat/protein etc. I would think "actual" could vary alot on foods (e.g. seed mixes, Nutriberries) where parts can be picked out and parts left -- depends on what the bird actually eats.

A - From Michele:

Interesting thing for those of you concerned about protein: since protein is listed as a MINIMUM, you may be getting much higher levels of protein than you think.

I talked to Dr. Ed Spencer at the FDA. According to him, there are no federal regulations on what pet food manufacturers put on their labels. The reason you see what you do, i.e. min protein content, is historical, coming from the livestock industry. Apparently in those industries they wanted to guarantee that you were a buying certain minimum standard. He says we shouldn't be too worried that the actual numbers are much off from the label numbers since he thinks it would not be cost effective for them to do so (i.e they want to save money). On the other hand, my friend who works in human-food-marketing tells me I ought to be skeptical as from her point of view food manufacturers often try to "get away with as much as they can & still be legal labelling" in order to save money. So, it's definitely a money thing, I just am not sure if it works in our favor or not.

Dr Spencer tells me there is another organization called AAFCO (I forget what the letters mean). This organization is supposedly made up of reps from each state. They get together & agree on guidelines for pet food. For instance, I guess dog/cat nutrition is better understood so they come up with recommendation that if you want to state "complete nutrition" then you had better have x, y and z in your product in amounts within the defined ranges. Then, each state decides on its own whether or not to adopt the AAFCO guidelines. If a state adopts it, then to sell your product in that state you must meet the guideline. He says about 30 states have adopted the guidelines but of course each state is free to do what they want to when they adopt it (i.e modify if they like).

Then to make it worse for birds, AAFCO cannot agree on what constitutes a good diet due to lack of good research, so many species, etc.

A - From Kelly:

I am a member of AAV. I am not aware of any efforts to have additional information included on bird food labels.

Many states have a requirement for mimimun protein and fat content and maximum fiber or ash content for pet food products as well as livestock feed. Everything else is mostly carbohydrates. The reason that the "Guaranteed analysis" minimums are required is because protein and fat are "expensive" ingredients. Unscrupulous manufacturers could, before the law was passed, put almost nothing in their product. The reason that the Guaranteed analysis Maximum is put on fiber or ash content is because that consists mostly of non-nutritional filler (and some minerals). It is the cheapest ingredient. A manufacturer tries to come as close to the Guaranteed minimum as he can without going under for protein and fat contents for cost reasons. This means that he will usually be a little higher than the minimum, but not by a whole lot. Reverse is true for fiber or ash content.

A - From Alison:

I decided to go with Harrison's (plus seed plus other food) because I have heard that it has the lowest vitamin A and D levels, is organic, and my vet recommends it.

This information on vitamin A and D came from a book "Feeding your pet bird" by Petra Burgmann. It compares the nutrient content of several different types of pellets (Kaytee, unfortunately, is not one of them). I just looked at it and Harrison's has the lowest vitamin A compared to Hagen, Lake's, Mazuri, Pretty Bird, Roudybush and Topper. It does not, however, have the lowest percentage of vitamin D--it is the second lowest. Hagen has the lowest vitamin D percentage. I spoke to Mattie Sue Athan (a well known bird behaviorist and author of Guide to a Well Behaved Parrot) yesterday. She has been looking into this vitamin D problem with the intention of writing an article about it for Bird Talk. She told me that vitamin D toxicity is a acknowledged as a well-known problem by several breeders she has talked to.

Two more little comments on Vitamin D from the book "Feeding Your Pet Bird."

Birds can make vitamin D in their bodies if they are exposed to natural sunlight (or, one presumes, a Vitalite) even if they don't get it in their food.

Also, few foods naturally contain significant amounts of vitamin D.

This is why I have a hunch that companies are playing with fire when they add more than a very conservative amount of vitamin D to a manufactured diet. I'm even beginning to question if Harrison's has more vitamin D in it than I am comfortable with.

A - From Editor:

Below is a list of pellet manufacturers. Many of the companies will mail you a sample free of charge. (The protein content listed in brackets was obtained from a list member and may not be accurate.)

Brown's (Tropical Carnival)
1-800-334-8816 ext. 62

Dr. D's
Avi-Sci, Inc.
POB 598
Okemos, MI 48805
1-800-942-3438

Hagen (Tropican granules)
1-800-225-2700
http://www.PubNIX.Net/~mhagan/
(14% protein, 9% fat)

Handley Corp. (Brazilia)
1-800-577-1163

Harrison's Bird Diet
c/o HBD Inc.
5770 Lake Worth Road
Lake Worth, FL 33463
1-800-346-0269

Kaytee
P.O. Box 230
Chilton, WI 53014
1-800-KAYTEE-1 or
1-800-529833-1

Lafeber Company
BT7 92 RR#2
Odell, IL, 60460
1-800-842-6445 ext. 922
Avi-Cakes, Nutriberries, pellets)

Lake's Ultimate Avian Diet
639 Stryker Avenue
St. Paul, MN, 55107
1-800-634-2473

(Mazuri's)
PMI Feeds, Inc.
1401 S. Hanley Road
St. Louis, MO 63144

Pretty Bird International, Inc.
5810 Stacy Trail
P.O. Box 177
Stacy, MN 55079-0177
1-800-356-5020

Roudybush Feeds
P.O. Box 908
Templeton, CA 934654
1-800-326-1726

Scenic Bird Foods
Marion Zoological Inc.
13803 Industrial Park Blvd.
Plymouth, MN 55441
1-800-327-7974
(Available only through
Veterinarians, and certain
dealers)
(23% protein)

Topper Bird Ranch
Rt. 19, Box 529
Lexington, NC 27292
or
Topper Bird Ranch - West
1466 N. Carpenter Rd.
Modesto, CA 95351
(209) 524-2828

Ziegler Brothers, Inc.
P.O. Box 95
Gardner's PA 17324
1-800-841-6800

ZuPreem
1-800-345-4767

Q4 - What fruits & veggies should I feed my J?

A - From editor:

Trial and error will work here. The companies listed below also offer prepared vegetable treats.

Crazy Corn
13330 Bessemer Street
Van Nuys, CA, 91491
1-800-BIRD-YUM (1-800-247-3986)

Flights of Fancy
1594 Hilltop Drive
El Cajon, CA, 92020-8227
1-800-776-MEAL (1-800-776-6325)

Q5 - What other people food or treats should I feed my J?

A - From editor:

Other healthy foods that people feed their J's are: breakfast cereals low in sugar, pasta, crackers low in salt & fat, breads, shared bits of meals, etc.

Treats which should be used sparingly: peanuts, almonds, grapes, apples, other fruits, Kaytee Puffs

Q6 - What supplements does my J need?

A - From editor:

If your bird is eating a good diet as described above, it should not need any vitamin or mineral supplements. These are all contained within the pelleted formula. However, an egg-laying hen may need calcium supplements. Ask your vet.

Q7 - What things should I NOT feed my J?

A - From editor:

Chocolate, avocado, caffeine, alcohol, foods high in fat (milk, cheese, etc.) or salt content. If it's junk food for humans, then its junk food for parrots. Also, avoid fruit pits, such as peach, apricot and cherry, which are toxic.

Q8 - What's the story with Lafeber's? Are all three products (Avi-Cakes, Nutriberries and the pellets) supposed to be complete diets?

A - From Michele:

Lafeber's claim that 100% pellet diet = 100% avicake diet = 100% nutriberry diet. They also admit in the same breath that the 3 products do not have same ingredients, same % of fat or protein, etc. So, I think this is a contradiction.

I think it also depends on whether or not the whole berry is consumed. I noticed Lafebers claim to be 96% eaten, little waste. Not true with Moe. Much much more than 4% is wasted, which is probably all the good stuff.

I finally got a call back from the Lafeber's person. She said that percentages on the package are either mins or maxs. For every batch they make, they take it to their lab for analysis. As long as the lab verifies that the protein is > the min specified, it is ok. Same for fat, moisture & fiber.

She did tell me that she would be happy to get me actual numbers on the product I have.... I would have to give her the lot numbers & expiration dates (perhaps that also defines a lot) & she could look up actuals for me. I thought that was good that she offered that.

TOYS FOR JARDINES
-----------------

Q1 - What kinds of toys would my J like?

A - From editor:

Most important is to offer a variety. Some good choices are wood, leather or other items that can be destroyed. Many J's on this list seem to have a favorite toy that they can "beat up". J's are usually very playful so be sure to keep introducing your J to many different toys until you discover what he/she likes. J's are also very intelligent, so the toys that offer some type of puzzle (such as food in a treat wheel) to figure out will keep their brains busy while you are away.

Be careful to check all toys for safety. There are many toys with unsafe parts (see below). Even if at first glance a toy may appear to be safe, make sure that you observe the way your J plays with it to be sure.

Q2 - What toys do people on this list recommend that I buy for my J?

A - From Steve:

Treat Wheel Perch, The name of the company is Golden Parrot, Kirkland VA, (206) 828-2661.

A - From Ros:

Tongue Teaser, from Just Parrots, ON, Canada, (416) 543-5789 or http://www.arcos.org/parrot/

Q3 - What toys can I make for my J?

A - From GinnyR:

Try getting a small piece of PCV pipe (2" costs 50 cents). Drill holes for attaching a leather strip. Stuff rolled up newpaper into the pipe and hang. They love to rip out the newspaper. Alex has a little pacifier tied to a piece of leather that he just loves. Also, get a lava rock with a hole in it (they are in the fish department of the pet store), get a short chainlink dog collar. Tie one end to the rock and the other to the cage, they love these. I made a fruit and veggie spear by putting holes in the fruit, veggie and running a shoe lace through it.

A - From Julie:

Yesterday at Michael's craft store I bought some wood pieces made by Lara's Crafts. I called the company and asked if the wood is safe for parrots and the lady didn't even hesitate before she replied "Oh yes--it's not treated in any way." They are birch. So, I bought some round pieces meant to be tires for wooden vehicles, and they have a hole in the center. They're easy for Digger to pick up, and he likes to carry one around. I used unsweetened Kool-aid and non-toxic paint to color the pieces. I I also made a toy out of strips of fabric tied around white cotton rope. The ends are knotted to prevent fraying, and that's what he plays with the most. He "preens" until he finds a knot, then he concentrates on that.

A - From Ursula:

In the last few months, Michi's developed a new toy fetish: caps of pill and spice containers, bottles, etc. She especially likes lids that have another part inside that she can pull out. Her absolute favorite are caps of spice containers: they're red and have two parts, one is the cap and the other the part with the little holes. Right now, nothing beats this as a toy. When she's taken the two pieces apart, I put them back together, and she starts all over. Sometimes it amazes me how these simple little things keep her busy many more hours than the expensive bird toys I buy for her at the store. (Needless to say, I thoroughly wash and disinfect everything before I give it to her.)

Other recently discovered simple toys: pieces of corrugated cardboard - roll them up and tie them up with a leather string; TP rolls: Michi isn't interested in them just as they are, but when I poke holes in them and attach bits of cotton rope (laundry line) with knots in it, she likes it; also pieces of cork - not from bottles, but the ones you can buy cheaply in houseware stores (I think they're for spice containers); strung up on leather with bits of wood, cardboard and beads or a bell, they make great toys. I also received a bottle of cognac a few months ago that came in a cork box, and I'm breaking that down into pieces.

Editor's note: there has been some discussion on this list regarding cork - it is possible that some commercial cork is bound with an adhesive that may not be bird-safe if ingested.

A - From MarilynN:

Here's an easy-to-make toy: All it is is a pvc connector.(39 cents) The one that looks just like a short straight tube without bends. The size for my cockatiels is the connector for 1 inch pvc pipes. Drill a whole all the way through the middle of the connector. Stick some leather through the whole and knot it so it stays in and tie the other end to a quick link for hanging. Now it looks like a hanging tube. Roll up some newpaper and put it in the tube so that it sticks out at both ends. Now let the birds have it. My cockatiels have been shredding paper for days and a lot less at the bottom of the cage. My only concern would be a head getting stuck if there is no paper left to shred, so my cockatiels only use it outside of there cage with supervision. For larger birds, just increase the size of the tube.

A - From Michele:

I made a great toy for Moe over the holiday weekend that he absolutely LOVED, I thought I would share it with you all. I had bought these little wicker fabric type witch hats (maybe 4" from peak to brim and maybe 4" diameter brim) in the craft store around Halloween. They only cost about 25 cents each on clearance & he had loved chewing up untreated wicker in the past. Well, I had 2 & tied one to each gym, but for a month, nobody wanted anything to do with these things. Not scared of them, just no interest in playing with them.

Well, over the weekend we had gotten some nuts in the shell. So Jeff took an almond & wedged it into the tip of the hat. Hat was clamped onto the end of that stupid harness I bought that Moe wanted NOTHING to do with, that I thought if I left it rigged up to the gym then he'd get used to seeing it all the time & maybe one day I'd get it on his body.

Anyway, Moe went wild wheeling it up & trying to get the nut out. Apparently first attempt was most humorous but I missed it. Moe stuck his beak into hat to try to get out nut & ended up with hat stuck on top of his head! Guess he didn't quite know where the hat or nut went OR what that scratchy thing on his head was. anyway, then he started trying other techniques but kept dropping the nut to the floor. So, we bent the hat brim & sort of folded it together & tied with a piece of twine. Can you believe he played with this thing for HOURS?? He absolutely had a blast. Kept him busy all turkey day. I think he got the nut out in pieces & there is still a nut shell in the hat. Then, he played with the toy again on Friday, even though there is no treat, just an empty nut shell. Spent at least another solid hour.

Q4 - What toys should I NOT give my J?

A - From Alys:

Rule of thumb: If you can bend any of the metal parts of your bird's toys with your fingers, teeth, or light pliers, your bird can bend it with his beak.

A - From Rita:

There are several common sense guidelines to use when selecting toys for your bird.

First and foremost - KNOW YOUR BIRD!! Ruckus is NOT an avid toy destroyer - therefore toys that would be safe for her, WOULD NOT be safe for most Jardine's.

FASTENERS - Any fastener with a sharp prong edge or protruding piece of metal should be removed. Regarding key rings, the weaker (thinner) the metal - the more likely a parrot is to open the key ring and get their beak caught. If you observe availability in a hardware store - you can see a difference. A stronger metal is more safe, less likely to be pried open. HOWEVER, never use key rings around birds that seem to disassemble and destroy their toys. A key ring on a toy for Ruckus would be safe, but not for Lucas, the BF Amazon.

The C-rings or quick links are good replacement fasteners if your toy does not have them. HOWEVER, I have heard of a bird impaling its beak on these also. My suggestion is to tighten the C-ring real well with a needle nose pliers after you have tightened it by hand. Even our TAGs, who live to open these things, cannot open one tightened well with pliers.

If possible, find smaller diameter C-rings and eliminate some of the rings, etc., that attach toy parts to chain. These smaller C-rings are not easy to find, especially ones that will slide over a thick cage bar - but they do exist. I have found them - but not very easily. The idea here is too loop the C-ring directly through the chain link and eliminate the ring connection all together.

COTTON/JUTE Rope toys - always be sure your bird's nails are trimmed when offering these toys. Monitor the toy - trim frayed pieces regularly. If your bird is typically destructive with these types of toys, offer them only under human supervision. NEVER place the "Cotton Candy" rope toy where it can be played with unsupervised - several birds have been hung once they became entangled. Even Sally B. cautioned the use of this toy, recommending supervision, at IAS (after myself and several others had forwarded tragic stories of birds injured or killed with this toy). Booda ropes can also become frayed so regular trimming should be maintained as needed.

Make sure that a small fragment of rope does not wrap around a part of your birds body - especially the foot or toe - twine fragments can be almost microscopic. If your bird plays with these types of toys, check them regularly for constrictions.

PLASTICS - I utilize plastic human baby toys for babies - but these toys are not necessarily recommended for adults who learn to chew and destroy as they get older. Babies are mouthers, and like to "tongue" everything and learn and explore the various textures of objects.

Never give adult birds hard plastic toys - such as those often made into baby rattles and many kinds of baby keys. Note that the popular penguin toy offered for smaller birds is made of hard plastic. Fine for a budgie (unless the lead weight is still in the bottom of these), but not alright for a Jardine's. If busted and ingested, these sharp pieces can puncture the GI tract, and require surgery - IF the problem is discovered in time. Many birds like the texture of beaking softer plastics, I have some baby keys that are a soft, rubber like material. However, if they are breaking these pieces off, watch carefully for ingestion tendencies and discontinue this type of toy if warranted. Again, perhaps only offer under supervision.

BUTTONS - Ruckus has removed many buttons off of my overshirts. She cracks the plastic in the center of the button - holes with thread - thus removing them. Most buttons are hard plastic - make sure your bird doesn't crack the centers out of these and ingest the small piece of plastic.

Be careful when selecting buttons for the sock toy that has been mentioned. Monitor to see if your parrot is breaking the buttons, and use ONLY buttons too large to be swallowed whole. An option to buttons would be to scout your craft store for the kids jewelry items. Thanks to Marilyn's idea, I make baby leather charm toys. I simply string plastic charms onto a thin piece of leather with knots in between each charm, or bead. It is a very popular hand toy for babies and adults alike. These particular charms (wish I could remember name and brand - Marilyn, can you help?) come in various miniature shapes - pacifier, horn, rattle, etc. There are four shapes. The bright colored charms are a hard plastic, the more translucent charms (not in stock as often) are a softer, more rubber like plastic, and the birds seem to prefer this texture. These charms are too large to be swallowed, and may make a good sock stuffer. You can also stuff socks with sturdy marbella beads, stainless steel nuts and bolts - just suggestions. Check out craft stores for stuffing ideas - small wood shapes would be great aslo - like miniature spools, etc.

ALWAYS give the appropriate sized toy for the appropriate bird species.

NEVER give budgie toys - like the plastic whiffle balls with jingle bells inside - to a bird with a stronger, more destructive beak. I have had to rescue an amazon who broke through the plastic mesh and impaled a jingle bell onto his beak. Breaking through the plastic, the entire whiffle ball can become stuck on the bird also. As soon as you note a break in the plastic mesh - throw the toy away.

Leather is a great texture toy - and the strips make a good fastener. I have had birds destroy the entire toy - all but the leather knot and about 2" of the strip remain at the top of the toy when the rest has been demolished. So using leather IS a good, safe fastener. Tie several knots and pull hard for strength - a spritz of water on the knot will dry and make the leather hard - thereby more difficult to come loose or unknot.

With cockatoos and birds who live to disassemble knots, purchasing some of the toy hangers now offered by Expandible Habitats and now some other companies may be a good alternative.

Several avian publications over the years have warned time and time again about using toys with jingle bell type toys. Even budgies can get their beaks caught in these - THEY ARE NOT SAFE and any concientious toy maker would not be using these in their toys. When buying bell toys - check the clappers - those with an open slit in the section that attaches to the bell are dangerous for most bird beaks. You want a clapper that has solid welded construction. Birds of Play and Perma Play both have safe clappers in their bells.

A - From Alys:

I agree with Rita.

I personally had to pry one of those bells off the side of a lovebird's beak. That was after I had to free his buddy's head from inside the ball the ball came in.

Mental Picture:

One green lovebird with a purple spaceman's helmet completely over his head, with his brother rolling around on the floor trying to remove the bell from his beak. I found them at 10 am when I went down to feed them, the sun was rising around 4:30. Poor little guys were exhausted.

Might as well take this time to remind you all about the danger of too--small clips on toys. Someone once gave a BFA in the store I worked at a set of Budgie Olympic rings. Before we realized he had it, Chico had the clip thoroughy stuck on his lower mandible: curved part into his mouth and the catch part into the hole for his neck under the beak. That was extremely difficult to remove, we worked on him for half an hour when we decided: one more try, then off to the vet to be sedated. Fortunately it came off with that one more try.

A - From editor:

Examples of toy parts that may be unsafe are:

- frayed rope (bird gets toes tangled)

- key ring type connectors (bird gets beak caught between metal pieces)

- clips with spring type mechanism (bird springs it open, gets beak/foot/etc inside, it springs back & bird is caught)

- chains with unwelded openings, may even be just a link or 2 on the toy

- soft plastic that could be bitten off & injested (J's have very strong beaks)

- small parts that could be ingested

- lead, may be found in weighted toys or household items (lead is extremely toxic)

Carefully examine all toys you purchase for safety. Often you will see a toy you like but it has an unsafe clip or other part on it. It is usually fairy simple to replace that part with another safer clip, such as a C-clip or with a piece of leather or cotton rope.

Q5 - How can I make a jungle gym for my J?

(THIS was supposed to be where I put Marilyn's description of the laundry rack thing. She typed it in so many times, yet I don't seem to have a post handy)

HEALTH AND VETS
---------------

Q1 - What does a healthy J look like?

A - From GinnyR:

Shiny feathers, active, bright eyes, alert, chatty, and eating. Poops should be greenish solid, with waterish circle around it. No poop stuck on vent. No fuzzy stuff or patches in the mouth or on beak. Cere, normal & healthly, not rough, scaley or enlarged.

Q2 - How can I tell if my J is feeling sick?

A - From GinnyR:

Off feed, puffed up, listless, lethargic, not playing, diarrhea, abnormal appearance anywhere.

Q3 - How often should I bring my J to the vet?

A - From GinnyR:

Healthy birds at least yearly for a check up to include a CBC. Take new birds to the vet ASAP for a purchase physical.

A - From Rita:

Many birds die because of illness with subclinical signs. An annual CBC can help determine if something is amiss that otherwise may go unnoticed. Sure it causes one to spend more money on a pet bird, but if people do this for cats and dogs, birds should warrant the same good care.

Q4 - What tests should my vet do for a normal visit?

A - From GinnyR:

Physical exam; weight, etc. Have a complete blood count (CBC) done, a blood chemistry profile (liver & kidney function), swabs of mouth and cloaca for bacteria, check for giardia and other internal parasites, check skin for health.

A - From Carol P.

For new bird, my vet does a gram stain (mouth and droppings), bacterial culture, chlamydia (psittacosis) screen, and complete blood count. A blood analysis (where they do kidney, liver, etc. function tests) is done on all birds large enough to give blood for that and the CBC during one visit -- on smaller birds it is done on a subsequent new bird exam.

Q5 - How do I find a good vet for my J?

A - From GinnyR:

Call a local vet to find an avian specialist in your area, or go to the library and look in the American Veterinary Medical Association Journal to find a Board Certified Avian Medicine Veterinarian. Ask you local pet shop. On the WWW go to the AVMA, Vet Medicine, or net vet to find out information. There is a list in the annual Issues of Bird Magazine.

Q6 - When should I start looking for an avian vet?

A - From GinnyR:

Before you bring your bird home.

Q7 - What are normal blood test results for healthy J's?

(insert example here.)

Q8 - Should I remove the leg band from my J?

A - From editor:

Another controversial issue:

People who prefer to leave the bands on do so to retain permanent identification of the bird. People who prefer to take them off do so because the bird can get the band caught on something and harm himself. These people also believe that if a bird was to be stolen or lost, the band would either be clipped by the thief or not aid in recovery of lost bird so there is no benefit. However, it is possible that a lost parrot might be recovered by an honest person who would choose to return the bird to the humane society if he/she saw a band on the bird's leg. The same person may, however, refrain from taking a bird to the humane society if no band were present, the belief being that there is no way to identify the owner of the bird. (This person may not be aware of microchipping, see below.)

Whether you choose to keep the band or remove it, keep in mind that open bands (bands with a break that were fitted onto a full-grown bird) are more likely to get caught in a toy or whatever than closed bands (bands that are solid all the way round and were fitted to the bird as a baby). Also, bear in mind that the removal a band from a bird must be done by a competent avian vet with the appropriate tools. Any damage done to the leg in the process of removing a band could (and has been) fatal.

If you want permanent ID, the best approach is to have your bird microchipped. This cannot be removed by anyone & is safe to the bird.

Q9 - What is a J's lifespan?

A - From Jean:

Educated guess would be 50 yrs. I know senegals that are in their 20s, I've heard it speculated they will live into the 30s. Greys are documented into the 70s, so would guess Js to be in the 50s, but I have never gotten any documentation on it.

A - From Rita:

I know that my friend Pam has a black-wing hen that has been with her for 25 years. Judging from life spans known of other similarly sized birds - I tell my customers that with proper nutrition and caution of household hazards (the two biggest reasons any bird's life span is not met) - they can expect a lifespan of 35-55 years for their pet Jardine's.

Q10 - Which avian diseases should I be aware of?

A - From editor:

* Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (PBFD)
* Polyoma virus
* Pacheco's virus
* Chlamydiosis (formerly known as psittacosis)
* Proventricular Dilitation Disease (PDD)

Check out http://netvet.wustl.edu/birds.htm#petbird for links to pages discussing these diseases.

A - From Jean:

Concerning PBFD (Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease)

Birds under 3 years of age are at risk if exposed to the virus. Many exposed birds will not become ill and the exposure will result in immunity to the disease. Birds beyond 3 years old if exposed, will not contract PBFD and become ill or carriers. A bird 12 years old that suddenly develops an active case of PBFD was exposed prior to his 3rd birthday, and has always had the virus.

There is a blood test for PBFD to see if a bird has PBFD. If it is positive in a young (under 3 years old) bird, the bird should be isolated and retested in 90 days. If again it tests positive with no feather abnormalities a third test should be done. If at that time it is positive the bird should be placed in a safe home with no other birds, or any exposure to other birds or it should be euthanised. A bird over three years old that tests positive, must always be tested again. If he was exposed en route, he will have the virus in the blood, but may not have the disease at all.

If you have a bird over 3, have the test run and if neg. you know he will never contract the disease, and he will never need the test again.

Q11 - What vaccines are appropriate for Jardine's?

A - From Rita:

We have recently begun a practice of vaccinating all of our babies for the polyoma virus prior to leaving our home. For a young bird, the polyoma vaccine should be considered a priority. There have been no fatal reactions reported as a direct result of the vaccine and I feel it is very safe. Once the two step vaccination is complete, ideally the baby should not leave the home for another 2-3 weeks for full effectiveness to provide optimum protection to the baby in a new environment. The polyoma virus vaccine requires an annual booster shot.

The Pacheco's vaccine, on the other hand, I avoid - due to non-favorable side effects having been reported.

A vaccination is also available for Psittacine Beak & Feather Disease (PBFD). Whether or not to get this vaccine will be a judgement call between you, the vet, and the breeder. For example, I do not raise cockatoos, we have done random tests on matter collected from the aviary, as well as a few birds, and the results have been negative. For us, PBFD is not a concern. However, if you have a cockatoo and your J will be exposed to it, or your J will be travelling or visiting places with cockatoos of which test results for PBFD are not known - having the bird vaccinated would be an extra precaution. This is not to say cockatoos are the only carriers of PBFD - all birds can get it. However, since it is more prevalent in 'toos, I worry about more there. The decision really needs to be based on the health of the flock your bird originated from, your own flock and your veterinarian's opinion.

If the source for your J continually has a steady stream of babies coming in from outside sources to hand-feed (common with pet stores and brokers), then a full realm of testing and vaccinations for polyoma and PBFD should be strongly considered. Of course, every new bird exam should include a test for chlamydia (formerly referred to as psittacosis).

A - From Martha:

My vet wants me to vaccinate my birds against Pacheco's now that they have reworked the vaccine since the problems with the original one. My vet has vaccinated her birds including one who had a bad reax to the original vaccine and has had no problems with the Pacheco's vaccination currently on the market. I'm still looking at this before I go forward with it for my flock. I do understand, however, that the cases of this have risen in the past year so my vet believes it should be done.

A - From ScottL:

To my knowledge, no PBFD vaccine is available in the U.S. A live vaccine is available in Australia where cockatoo populations are at high risk. But the vaccine is considered to be relatively dangerous and has not been approved for use in the U.S.

A - From Martha:

When I decided to polyoma vaccinate my birds, it was after Branson Ritchie did some bloodwork on all my birds and found polyoma titers in almost all of them. I had not had any birds get ill or die because of polyoma, but clearly my birds had been exposed and the possibility that one might have shed or be shedding was too high to ignore. I vaccinated my birds. Then a month or so ago, I did the swabs around my house (air vents, nestboxes, cages, etc) to have them tested for polyoma virus -- all came back negative.

I just wanted to add that all my birds have been polyoma vaccinated without any problems at all.

From what I understand of polyoma, most birds will not get sick from exposure to it once they are adults, but some adults will get sick and die. Babies with their undeveloped immune systems are quite endangered by the virus. So, if you don't breed birds and your birds are all adults, then you are less likely to need the vaccination. On the other hand, you could have that adult bird that is susceptible to the virus and you could bring it home to your bird on your hands or clothes after being in contact with other birds.

The other pro for vaccinating all the birds, in my opinion, is that we could probably wipe this virus out if we all did that.

Q12 - I have the flu this week. Should I be worried about my bird buddy catching the virus from me?

A - From Rita:

Our flu and cold germs cannot be passed onto our avian friends, dogs, etc. There are only 3 zoonotic diseases that can be passed from bird to human or vice versa, the most common being chlamydia (or psittacosis - a good reason to have very bird tested for this upon purchase). Another is TB and I cannot recall the third.

A - From ScottL:

It should be noted that Avian Influenza and Human Influenza A are the same virus. According to RH&H, "Theoretically, humans may also be able to infect their companion birds."

A - from M. Wissman, courtesy of Jean:

Mammals are dead-end hosts. Chlamydiosis is considered a zoonotic disease, transmissible from animals to humans. Humans and pet dogs and cats cannot give chlamydiosis (correct name) to birds directly. We can act as vectors, carrying the organism on our bodies, hair, clothes, shoes, etc. and pass it to birds that way, however, this method of transmission is not very common. Psittacosis is the antiquated name for this disease (implying psittacine birds) and chlamydiosis is more accurate.

From: The Biology of Chlamydia psittaci, Helga Gerlach, Seminars in Avian and Exotic Pet Medicine

The genus, Chlamydia consists of four species, two of which (C. trachomatis and C. pneumoniae) are restricted to humans. Chlamydia pecorum has been proposed as a ruminant-specific strain. C. psittaci has a broad host spectrum among birds (most of the psittaciformes and at least 130 species in other orders), mammals including humans (practically all domesticated mammals, and many wild mammals), as well as some amphibians and arthropods....All owners of chlamydial birds should be educated on the zoonotic potential of the organism. The clinical symptoms in humans include spiking fever, night sweats, and pneumonia.

A Color Atlas of Avian Chlamydiosis:

The single most effective safety precaution is to prevent aerosolization of the contaminated, infectious material (dusts of dried feces, urates, and ocular, oral and nasal discharges (of birds.))

Q13 - Is it safe to take a wing-clipped Jardine's parrot outdoors?

A - From Rita:

The group of Poicephalus parrots are also called "long winged" parrots. Even with a full wing clip, some of these well-muscled birds can still manage to fly quite well. The Greater J's, especially, are very streamlined because of their slim build.

Despite my warnings, I have had customers take their J's outdoors, uncontained, but clipped. For one family the bird was startled one day and ended up flying over 300 yards and landed in a tree. They managed to follow the direction of his flight and did get the bird back after he spent a night in a tree (in which he could have been singled out and tormented by crows, become hawk or owl lunch, etc.). This bird was completely clipped.

Another J customer had his clipped red-belly out of doors sitting in a low limb of a tree while they were out enjoying summer weather. A Motorcycle drove by and the loud noise scared the bird and off he flew. Again, this bird was recovered.

Many group members have been using the bird harnesses now available with luck. This is the only manner in which I can condone taking birds outdoors uncontained. Even still, there is the danger of predatory wildlife attempting to snatch your bird. Anyone who takes their bird out needs to take the role of the "sentinel bird" at all times.

Q14 - What are the benefits/concerns associated with using full-spectrum lighting in my bird room?

A - From Alison:

Birds can make vitamin D in their bodies if they are exposed to natural sunlight (or, one presumes, a Vitalite) even if they don't get it in their food.

Also, few foods naturally contain significant amounts of vitamin D.

Editor's comment: Keep in mind that several pellets are fortified with Vitamin D. As Vitamin D overdose can result in death, it is not recommended to provide pellets or supplements with high percentages of Vitamin D to parrots that are exposed to large amounts of natural or artificial sunlight.

A - From Michele:

It is not correct to say UV is harmful. UVB is both good and bad. It is what causes the body to synthesize vitamin D. On the other hand, too much can cause eye problems and skin cancer. Too little is bad. Too much is bad.

UVA is the part of the spectrum that comes in between visible light & the UVB. I have also seen stuff referring to UVC which I guess comes next to UVB on the other side. Of the graphs I have seen for lighting, there doesn't tend to be a dip in the output in the UVA range -- its more contiguous. Something about the technology of manufacturing bulbs I assume... i.e. if you get visible and you get UVB, you are very likely to get the UVA too.

I think both UVA & UVB can cause sunburn and I think UVB is actually worse taken in the same dose. Most of the stuff I have run across tends to focus on the UVB aspect because too much / too little seems to cause problems.

I am not sure if there have been known cases of cataracts in birds.... even if a bird had cataracts, it would be hard to prove the cause. Even with well controlled scientific experiments it is difficult to prove cause and effect.

When buying bulbs, you have to get spectral frequency outputs & compare those as well. The manufacturer should be able to give you a graph of wavelength vs output. UVB wavelengths are in the 290-315 nm range. Unfortunately, many bulbs are sold as "full spectrum" when they are just full *visible" spectrum.

A - From Karen:

I just pulled out a collection of papers from an international herpetological (reptiles) symposium and there is a paper on full spectrum lights. I have chameleons, which need specific UV spectrums in order to produce vitamin D.

The different UV A, B, or C levels refer to differences in the wavelengths of light for each. UV A is 320-400 nm, UV B is 290-320, and UV C is 200-290 nm. UV C is typically blocked by the earth's atmosphere and some UV B is also blocked. Apparently, you get more of the shorter wavelengths near the equator then you get increasingly longer wavelengths as you move toward the poles. As the wavelength gets shorter, the danger of the UV light increases. Some UV B can cause problems to eyes and skin of humans. Apparently there is a germicidal lamp with UV C components which would actually harm animals.

With the full spectrum fluorescent bulbs I use for my chameleons, I need to check on how much of each wavelength is generated and how far away from the bulb it radiates. The full spectrum bulbs need to be positioned so that chameleons can be within 12" (some bulbs require positioning even closer to the animals but I try to get bulbs that are guaranteed to radiate farther). Also, full spectrum bulbs lose their ability to generate the shorter wavelengths with time. It is recommended that they be replaced every 6 months.

A - From Max:

My avian veterinarian recently explained to me that many people believe that they are purchasing "full-spectrum" lights when in actuality they are buying "color corrected" lights. It was an expensive mistake for me since the two are similarly priced.

MORE JARDINE INFO
-----------------

Q1 - Where can I get more info on J's?

A - from editor:

There was a good article in Bird Talk written by Rita Shimniok (member of this list). It was published in the April 1996 issue.

Q2 - Are there any web sites that have J information?

A - from editor:

Here are a few:
http://www.wingscc.com/aps/jardine.htm
http://starfire.ne.uiuc.edu/~pres/jardine/jardine.html
http://www.wingscc.com/jardine
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~garry/cagtag-l/faq/default.html

Q3 - Are there any good publications I should subscribe to?

A - from editor:

Pet Bird Report is highly recommended by many people on this list. Try http://www.best.com/~sallypbr or

Pet Bird Report
2236 Mariner Square Drive #35
Alameda, Ca. 94501-1059
(510) 523-5303

African ARK is published by the African Parrot Society. APS members receive this publication quarterly.

Q4 - Is there a Jardine parrot society I can join?

No. The closest parrot society would be the African Parrot Society. The APS can be reached at:

President Jean Pattison - afqueen@gate.net
VP, Publisher, and all membership Randy Karg - randyk@clarinda.heartland.net
WEB - http://www.wingscc.com/aps
WEBMaster Gary Blankenbiller - wings@wingscc.com

African Parrot Society
P.O.Box 204
Clarinda, IA 51632-2731

Q5 - What are some good books for general information?

1) My Parrot My Friend - Bonnie Munroe Dean and Thomas Quakinbush
2) Guide to a Well-Behaved Parrot - Mattie Sue Athan
3) The Parrot in Health & Illness - Bonnie Munroe Dean
4) others?

POSTING ON THIS LIST
--------------------

Q1 - What do the acronyms that people on this list use mean?

J - Jardine
IMHO - In My Humble Opinion
IMO - In My Opinion
G - Grin
BG - Big Grin
VBG - Very Big Grin
:-) - Smile
:-( - Frown
SnailMail - The U.S. Postal Service
TTYL - Talk To You Later

Q2 - How do I reply to a post?

A - Send posts to jardine@starfire.ne.uiuc.edu

A - From Jean:

When you send a message put the subject in the subject line, so people will know what your message will refer to. Some people may not want to read a message about your vet visit or what you are naming your bird and can just delete the message without having to open it. Some people get 200+ messages a day, (they are subscribed to 8 or 9 mailing lists) and only have time to read what they are interested in. Of course we are interested in anything pertaing to Js. Some mail programs (like mine) will put the original post I'm replying to in the reply so people can follow the conversation, some do not. Try to just send back what is important to the conversation. That should get you started.

A - From Sheila:

We e-mail "the list" which consists of everyone who subscribes to it. Many subjects are discussed here, from very novice first bird kind of things to information from the breeders on the list regarding preserving the purity of the sub-species, etc. Jean and Rita are two breeders on this list that offer a lot of help and advice. They are not the only ones by far! There are a lot of helpful people here, so feel free to ask questions and to contribute your experiences. Everyone is very friendly and non-threatening. Apparently there are bird lists where this is not the case! Some of us have other birds as well.

Q3 - Is it normal for me to get messages out of order?

A - Yes. This is inherent in the way the Internet works. Your email is sent to a server, which in turn sends it out to all other list members. Mail is routed through the network, similar to how the US Post Office works. Message delays from point to point are not guaranteed. So, for you to receive a message from person A, it takes (delay from A to server) + (delay from server to you). A message from person B takes (delay from B to server) + (delay from server to you). Also keep in mind that (delay from server to you) will not always be the same. Just as if you are driving from point A to point B, it takes different amounts of time, depending on which roads you take plus whether or not you encounter any traffic delays.

Q4 - What if no one answers my questions?

A - First: check the FAQ. Perhaps people are not answering because this question comes up quite frequently and thus an answer has already been placed in the FAQ.

Second: be patient! Not everyone reads their email right away & some people who only have email at work (i.e Rita) will not read/answer email on non-work days.

Third: It may be that the topic was just discussed or that no one knows the answer. If you have waited a reasonable amount of time for an answer, please feel free to re-submit your question.

Q5 - How do I subscribe or leave the list?

To unsubscribe to the regular email list, send an email to listserv@starfire.ne.uiuc.edu

Leave the subject line blank and include the following (insert your name and email address) in the email text body.

unsubscribe jardine John Smith <jsmith@anywhere.com>

To unsubscribe to the digest email list, send an email to listserv@starfire.ne.uiuc.edu

Leave the subject line blank and include the following (insert your name and email address) in the email text body.

unsubscribe jardine-digest John Smith <jsmith@anywhere.com>

You may prefer to receive the digest version of the jardine email posts. The digest version is just the concatenation of all the posts for a day or portion of a day. I receive about 1 to 4 digest mails daily, depending on the traffic.

To subscribe to the digest version, send an email to listserv@starfire.ne.uiuc.edu

Leave the subject line blank and include the following in the email text body.

subscribe jardine-digest

PRODUCTS FOR BIRDS
------------------

Q1 - Which products are recommended for cleaning cages?

A - * Poop Off
* Enviroclean
* Oxyfresh http://www.oxyfresh.com:80/

Q2 - Which companies sell full-spectrum light bulbs?

A - * OTT, 1-800-842-8848 or
http://www.ott-lite.com/mainline.html
* VitaLite

Q3 - Which companies sell gram scales suitable for weighing parrots?

A - * "Pet"iatric Supply, (316) 524-1154, Joe Freed
* Ohaus scales available from Avitech, (805) 245-1013
* Feeding Tech, (800) 688-0850
* Rick's Bird Supply (414) 461-6767
* Diamond Avian Distributors, 1-800-353-BIRD or
http://www.diamondavian.com/
* Pelouz postage scales from Office Max
* Terraillon kitchen scales

Q4 - Which companies sell bird-safe cookware (i.e. no Teflon)

A - Caphalon sells an anodized version (avoid the non-stick version). This cookware is expensive but cleans up easily and is super to cook with.